Crazy Wisdom of the Zen Masters - Playful Fun Koans

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

..the "AHA Moment" just happens.

Oh, and when that switch happens in the mind beyond logic...
what a moment that is...it's (to me) like entering the world of childhood ...fantasy...magic ...where everything is....and is possible....Ahhh.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

The Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn once had an intriguing dialogue with an ADVANCED FEMALE DISCIPLE during which he looked at her half-smiling and said: "Women cannot get enlightenment".

Her reaction hit home, maybe she was defending her womanhood and right to be?

But do you need to defend what you already are?

It’s a bit like dropping the ‘I’ your determining what you are.

[JustBe]

As for the ‘I don’t know’ that’s probably closer to the emptiness of self, ‘no self’ awareness, even though he knows. How can you not know ‘I don’t know’ unless you know..hehe

Knock knock
Who’s there?
No one
No one who?
Who’s no one!
No, who’s no one?
Who’s no one!
No I’m asking you who’s no one?
Who’s no one!
(Oh the absurdity of it all. Hehe)

Zen by justbe

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky

Who can 'GET' enlightenment .....

That's a good point but I don't think that was his point as his statement was specifically directed to a woman. However, I have more information to share shortly about the conclusion of that dialogue.

As I've said before, there is no single approved interpretation/answer to a koan. This is FUN hearing people's views.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by inavalan

One interpretation: That's a koan, for women. He confused her, so she got in trance, and understood "whatever" inner truth (not a rationalization).

There are other possible interpretations too.

Seung Sahn definitely confused the ADVANCED FEMALE DISCIPLE (I emphasize that she was advanced because this is probably not something one would say to a novice) with his statement. Seung Sahn let her ponder the statement until he cleared it up with another koan-like concluding line which I will share shortly.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Oh, and when that switch happens in the mind beyond logic...
what a moment that is...it's (to me) like entering the world of childhood ...fantasy...magic ...where everything is....and is possible....Ahhh.

Wow ! Indeed "what a moment that is... when that switch happens in the mind beyond logic".

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

That's a good point but I don't think that was his point as his statement was specifically directed to a woman.
As I've said before, there is no single approved interpretation/answer to a koan. This is FUN hearing people's views.

Can a Man 'Get' enlightenment no, because an enlightened being doesn't identify with gender imo....

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Her reaction hit home, maybe she was defending her womanhood and right to be?
But do you need to defend what you already are?
It’s a bit like dropping the ‘I’ your determining what you are.

Although I hadn't given the concluding statement of the Zen Master regarding his statement that "women can't get enlightenment", your interpretation came closest to my own understanding of the interaction ... and I had more information at my disposal.

When pressed by the woman to support his statement that "women can't get enlightenment", Seung Sahn finally wheeled around sharply, pointed his finger at her and, looking into her eyes strongly, said "So, you're a 'woman' ?"

The student was silent as the teaching sank in.

My understanding is similar to the last line of your post. She had to drop her identification with being a 'woman' and determine who she really is. Identification with the body, with one's gender, etc. can obscure the clear vision of who one really is.

You raised a very good point in your post despite the fact that I had held back crucial information.

NOTE: As I've said before, there is no single approved answer/interpretation to a koan. No one really knows what was in the mind of Seung Sahn or his advanced female student.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 23 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by JustBe

As for the ‘I don’t know’ that’s probably closer to the emptiness of self, ‘no self’ awareness, even though he knows. How can you not know ‘I don’t know’ unless you know..hehe

That is very close to my understanding of Bodhidharma's response though I prefer the "Not Knowing" translation since it doesn't include the "I" as in "I don't know".

Another poster provided a link to the entire dialogue between Bodhidharma and the Emperor. As you pointed out in your post, Bodhidharma did refer explicitly to the "emptiness".

https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/comment...ly_to_emperor/

EXCERPT:

Emperor Wu of Liang asked Bodhidharma, What is the first principle of the holy teachings?" Bodhidharma said, "Emptiness, no holiness." "Who is this standing before me?" "No knowing."

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky

Can a Man 'Get' enlightenment no, because an enlightened being doesn't identify with gender imo....

That is EXACTLY the point (IMHO).

However, since Seung Sahn was addressing a female student, he understandably used the word "woman".