Zen Anybody

[sky]

Originally Posted by sentient

Yeah, good to be on the 'same page'

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When pulling in opposite directions something has to snap....

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

" Golden chains " for sure. I've been behind golden bars plenty of times, still am at times. That sufi saying is rather deep, not sure i fully understand but its not meant to be understood i suppose in the conventional sense. Perhaps it's saying if you have an inkling about what it is then its not it,if you see the Buddha on the Road Kill Him ! That type of thing. Thanks for sharing

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I'm not sure that I know what that Sufi saying means (IF NOT, THEN NOT) since I do not know what is in the mind of the Sufi mystic Ibn Arabi when he said it.

My understanding (and I could be wrong) --- since he was talking about revelation at the time --- was NOT to press for revelations but to be still and "empty" while simply waiting for whatever is important to be revealed in the proper moment. Hence, if no revelation, then simply wait longer as the timing is not right. "IF NOT, THEN NOT (at this time)".

That was my take and it's consistent with what "Sentient" posts here. What do you think?

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

As someone who has spent a lot of time around many famous masters, and got to know these masters behind their public personas, my opinion is that is self caused. Just a result of belief. Like I can believe a rock I found is magical and thus experience that as a result of my belief. If we believe some person is somehow "highly spiritual," this belief produces the experience we have of them. It is wholly self caused.

Obviously many would not accept my opinion here lol. Some posters even have claimed the ability to give others metaphysical experiences. But then of course they can. Belief produces experience! If I can convince someone I can give them a nirvana experience, then I can. We experience what we believe. If I can convince someone plants are conscious beings similar to us, and they are totally aware of us and listen to what we say etc, then send such a person into the woods at night alone.... they will run back terrified by what they experienced.... was that fear caused by the plants? Nope, 100% caused by their beliefs.

Other's moods and states effect us obviously. But does it mean some people being peaceful are somehow advanced spiritually or better than others in some way? Not really. If one values peace more than violence, yea they are better that way. But no one is fundamentally different from anyone else. The difference is in what we make out of what we have. What we have varies as well. No one lives under the same conditions or circumstances. A lot of these successful "masters" have a pretty good gig.... no money problems, easy life style, peaceful environments, people around them who love and surrender to them, ..... pretty much under the same living conditions everyone would also be peaceful, at peace. Does that make them more advanced than others, not necessarily.

I'd guess if there actually was some person/consciousness who was actually advanced, no one would recognize them as such. Such a person would never let another "follow" them or ever claim to be better than somebody else. I'd guess one could be aware of their profound love and compassion, but their humble nature would never allow them to put themselves above others as most of these "masters" do. People feel profound things around celebrities, rock stars, actors, masters, anyone famous. I once had a big you tube following, met someone, a "fan" and they said all excited, "omg I can't believe I'm meeting you in person.... I can't talk! This is surreal" etc....." All self caused. I used to go to comic con every year. I was around a lot of very famous entertainers. People would be so crazy.... one time a girl fainted. One time a lot of the twilight cast walked around the line I was in to hand us breakfast..... people got so excited.... they were on this high for hours.... just because some actor handed us a donut.

One time I went to a meditation with a master, guy next to me told me after that he saw the master leave their body during the meditation and fly around the room, later this master got in big trouble for having sex with married community members... as well as doing other horrible things. If one believe's they are meeting a "god" that is what they will experience. Real life, most masters are egotistical people who are selfishly pursuing their own pleasures. I've met 2 popular "masters" who behind the scenes have said they dislike children and find them a nuisance. Most times "masters" don't allow children anywhere near their events.... as they disrupt the "energy." Hard to be "peaceful" if a child wants some attention I guess? Or makes noise?

You raise a few very good points in your post.

I totally agree that " Belief produces experience! If I can convince someone I can give them a nirvana experience, then I can. We experience what we believe. " It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in a sense.

I too have seen many "masters" who look a lot differently behind the scenes, as you duly noted.


Lastly, you wrote: "I'd guess if there actually was some person/consciousness who was actually advanced, no one would recognize them as such. Such a person would never let another "follow" them or ever claim to be better than somebody else." That has been my experience as well. I once met a "homeless black man" at Grand Central Station (NYC) many many years ago but sensed something very compelling about him and approached him to buy him something to eat. "By chance", we kept meeting in various places for about two years before he finally revealed himself. He was light years ahead of "enlightened egotistical me". Our connection continued for another 7 years for a total of 9 years. Without going into details, he was one of the most advanced beings I have ever met and yet outwardly he appeared so ordinary even during the first two years of our relationship.He is actually one of my ideals.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by sky123

When pulling in opposite directions something has to snap....

Unless we are indifferent or unconcerned about the pulling.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

He was light years ahead of "enlightened egotistical me".

I remember picking up some angry relatives at an airport, a few of them very wealthy, and driving though downtown and the entire car was tense, unhappy miserable, and we passed these three homeless men who were talking and laughing and seemed to be in total joy, the contrast was striking.

"Earth" school is not equal in many many ways. The tests vary greatly in scope and material.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I'm not sure that I know what that Sufi saying means (IF NOT, THEN NOT) since I do not know what is in the mind of the Sufi mystic Ibn Arabi when he said it.

My understanding (and I could be wrong) --- since he was talking about revelation at the time --- was NOT to press for revelations but to be still and "empty" while simply waiting for whatever is important to be revealed in the proper moment. Hence, if no revelation, then simply wait longer as the timing is not right. "IF NOT, THEN NOT (at this time)".

That was my take and it's consistent with what "Sentient" posts here. What do you think?

Yes I kinda thought what you said there is one of the main jists of that saying. When it arrives it is revelatory and unfabricated. You cannot force or fabricate a revelation, it will reveal itself. Sentient gave some great meanings about seeking to not exist but ill have to read his post again. I myself found close similarities between this saying and " If you see the Buddha on the Road Kill Him." So if the truth is fabricated and false do not follow it in your own mind or any other. The Buddha who appears on the road, or in the mind, as you know, can quickly become something else other than the Buddha, and the mirage of the Buddha is not Buddhahood, that type of thing.
I'm sure you have heard the story of the old Zen priest perhaps a Master who chopped up the Buddha statue one night for firework as it was getting a bit chilly. Some folks were aghast of course ! Totally pragmatic and also the Buddha spoke about Rites and Rituals as a fetter that binds us to ignorance. Yes that saying, "If not, then not " seems quite familiar, it resonates with us deep inside somewhere. Anyway thanks.

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Yes that is a great quote but he says nothing of Sin. The Sin of attributing a false purpose to life here on earth. A false understanding to who and what you think you might be doing here. How you can to be here and what is behind your manifestation or appearance here on earth ? Surely that is the existence he is speaking about, the one that people call ego, the one that people call the false self, that is duality and the imposter, the Diablo, The Devil, The small mind, The Mara and The Maya to use but just a few terms to describe it. To Thine Own Self be True, can an average man or an average Joe if you like you, find that authenticity ? That surety of purpose that he was made to as a creature of God solely and singularly and that is his total reason for being here on this earth. Just a couple of twists and turns there Sentient...sorry for going off the beaten track ! May we all be well Inshallah !

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"Just a couple of twists and turns there Sentient..."

Sounds like a bitava tangle …. & (scratching my head) - sheeesh, I don’t know Joe …

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I didn’t respond to the Bodhisattva thread, not being too sure what Bodhisattva is.

In the Early Buddhist schools as well as modern Theravada Buddhism, a bodhisattva (Pali: bodhisatta) refers to anyone who has made a resolution to become a Buddha and has also received a confirmation or prediction from a living Buddha that this will be so.

In Mahayana Buddhism, a bodhisattva refers to anyone who has generated bodhicitta, a spontaneous wish and compassionate mind to attain Buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings.

D. T. Suzuki’s bodhisattva:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKg0lz_NvKk

Perhaps ….. not knowing what buddha is, is Buddha, and perhaps not knowing who or what we are either will show us our true colours.

When the conventional, conceptual mind gets hold of an idea of a 'bodhisattva' or say the Taoist I Ching ‘The Superior Man’ …. to me this conjures up a ‘Monty Python’ type of comedy script (of unskilful means) or alternatively David Carradine starred “Kung Fu” (skilful means) series (used to love it, what I remember of it):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvu5YcmYhSQ

The changes are, if we do make the bodhisattva vow (conscious intent/commitment) – we will oscillate between the two and insights into our unskilfulness automatically; - will help us to see how to correct our posture on the “Prana Horse”.

THE BUDDHIST JOURNEY is a journey from beginning to end in which the end is also the beginning. This is the journey of the nine yanas, the nine stages that students go through on the path. Yana means “vehicle” or “mode of transport.” Once you get onto this particular bandwagon, it is an ongoing journey without reverse and without brakes. You have no control over the horse that is pulling this carriage. It is an ongoing process. Beginning this journey is committing yourself to a particular karmic flow, a karmic chain reaction.
(Trungpa)

If we experience the fruiting of our intent/commitment and we see our ordinary daily life situations turn into karmic moment to moment lessons, I guess we then are bodhisattvas, but this meaning any kind of perfected state in-the-eyes-of-others ('being somebody') would be far from the truth ….

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[Phaelyn]

Priest, monk, buddha, master, mystic, lama, bodhisattva, guru, nun, abbot, ... I probably missed a bunch, but I don't think human invented titles or roles, jobs, like these have much meaning when we leave this body. I don't think words like nirvana, enlightenment, liberation, have any meaning or importance beyond this body either.

Our conscious energy has reached some level of development, hopefully a bit higher from this lifetime, then at the death of the body, according to our development, we go to others around the same level. Then we assume the roles we have in the non-physical world with those we know well.

Some earthy jobs or roles do have similar things in the non-physical realm. Some work with animal consciousness, some with"science" but on an energy level of course, some teach, some do healing, some work with those in the physical realm, some are way advanced and who knows what they do.... like the "elders" we see when we first get back and they ask us a few questions about how we think we did...they don't even appear in bodies but are instead a pure light of some kind. They ask us a few questions and poof..... disappear to who knows where. Oh and some do creative type stuff with music, arts, work with physical creations.

The non-physical world is much more "social" than this human life on earth. There are no "loners" doing their own thing, we are much more connected to each other. That's why these conceptual ideas like enlightenment and what not don't continue. The idea I do something to advance myself alone would not make any sense there. It's more about what can I do for another or what can we do. But then what "enlightenment" is is probably misunderstood. It brings about connection, one with others, ends divisions, ends selfishness. But in our culture we have these ideas about "jedi's" and other "hero" types so these cultural myths and stories get mashed up with religions teachings. We imagine ourselves on some kind of solo quest. Make it about me. Really enlightenment is about how I relate to others, how I treat others, about my experience of myself and others, not about some solo power or achievement.

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I'm not sure that I know what that Sufi saying means (IF NOT, THEN NOT) since I do not know what is in the mind of the Sufi mystic Ibn Arabi when he said it.

My understanding (and I could be wrong) --- since he was talking about revelation at the time --- was NOT to press for revelations but to be still and "empty" while simply waiting for whatever is important to be revealed in the proper moment. Hence, if no revelation, then simply wait longer as the timing is not right. "IF NOT, THEN NOT (at this time)".

That was my take and it's consistent with what "Sentient" posts here. What do you think?

I am not sure either what “IF NOT, THEN NOT” Sufi saying meant, but it can be applied to accepting “What Is”.

Though I thought the meaning you Still Waters gave, was excellent!

This can be applied to bodhisattva vow (intent/commitment) as well.
After which ……. “NOT to press for revelations but to be still and "empty" while simply waiting for whatever is important to be revealed in the proper moment. Hence, if no revelation, then simply wait longer as the timing is not right. "IF NOT, THEN NOT (at this time)".

IF our bodhisattva vow/commitment is genuine and has ‘taken root’ (or how to say it) – omens, signs and indications will appear – with the ‘right timing’.

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When Castaneda was studying Native beliefs - this reminds me of Castaneda’s …. “agreements from the world” – which I would name as “agreement from Spirit” ………

http://www.alangullette.com/essays/philo/ixtlan.htm

Don Juan's "lessons" take place in the field. They are not intellectual or academic (despite Castaneda's note-taking), but are geared to awaken a part of the human being that is dormant – namely, the body, which has an innate intelligence (will) apart from the intellect (reason).

In the course of these lessons, the sorcerer's worldview is revealed. The basic premise of the view concerns views: "the world of everyday life is not real, or out there, as we believe it is" but is merely a description, a view. Therefore, plants are not "just" plants but are sensitive and might become malevolent if we are ungrateful for their generosity. (This sounds very ‘Native’).

Likewise, crows become more than "just" crows but are also omens, giving important indications for those to whom they are friendly. (This sounds Native as well, referring to ‘familiars’)

And there are other ways (than crows) that a man can get "agreements from the world" – the wind in the leaves, a falling rock, a jet flying over, the "comments" of a coffee percolator, etc.

In thinking that the world is only the way we think it is (which is arrogant and involves self-importance), we prevent ourselves from appreciating the vastness and awesomeness of life and of ourselves.

D.T. Suzuki’s crossing (bridging) the 2 worlds:
- Power of bodhisattva’s vow
- Transcendental Wisdom
- Skilful means
- Psychic penetration
(I would attribute the “Agreement from the Spirit” to this latter).


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[sky]

When the time is right all will be revealed, a happening rather than a doing