Is suffering a necessary part of human condition?

[Altair]

Originally Posted by A human Being

Pain and suffering need not necessarily go hand in hand, though, you can experience pain without also suffering - ever hear the saying, 'Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional'?

It depends on how you define it. If we go with this definition than it isn't optional.

Also, I don't think it is ''optional'' for any normal functioning human being when loved family members, friends, or pets die. I disagree with those who think such suffering should be ''tamed'' with *spiritual practice* or be cast aside with rational argument ((and many spiritual paths are awkwardly living by rather rational standards)). There's a coldness to it that I don't like.

[A human Being]

Originally Posted by Altair

It depends on how you define it. If we go with this definition than it isn't optional.

I disagree with that definition, I don't think pain and suffering are synonymous - it's just that human beings tend to have a very reactive relationship with pain, understandably so, and so pain does tend to be accompanied by suffering. But it's been my experience that I can feel pain and not be suffering at the same time, it depends on whether I'm resisting or allowing the pain.

Originally Posted by Altair

Also, I don't think it is ''optional'' for any normal functioning human being when loved family members, friends, or pets die. I disagree with those who think such suffering should be ''tamed'' with *spiritual practice* or be cast aside with rational argument ((and many spiritual paths are awkwardly living by rather rational standards)). There's a coldness to it that I don't like.

It's natural and healthy to feel grief in response to the loss of a loved one, yes, but again, the more you allow yourself to feel the pain, the less you suffer.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by A human Being

I disagree with that definition, I don't think pain and suffering are synonymous - it's just that human beings tend to have a very reactive relationship with pain, understandably so, and so pain does tend to be accompanied by suffering. But it's been my experience that I can feel pain and not be suffering at the same time, it depends on whether I'm resisting or allowing the pain.

It's natural and healthy to feel grief in response to the loss of a loved one, yes, but again, the more you allow yourself to feel the pain, the less you suffer.

Let's say you're dreaming; you lose a loved one, and you feel the pain; this triggers lucidity. What would you do then, considering that whatever you want can happen? Would you allow yourself to feel the pain? Is there another way?

[blackraven]

inavalan - Don't know what A human Being's response will be, but the way I see it: just like in a complete awakened state one can choose to embrace a feeling coming on like pain, sorrow and sadness or one can push it down into the subconscious and numb oneself to feeling anything at all or at least what would seem rational to most human beings.

If someone I loved died in a lucid dream I would hope that I would cry and maybe then, after shedding tears, will myself out of the dream.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by A human Being

I disagree with that definition, I don't think pain and suffering are synonymous - it's just that human beings tend to have a very reactive relationship with pain, understandably so, and so pain does tend to be accompanied by suffering. But it's been my experience that I can feel pain and not be suffering at the same time, it depends on whether I'm resisting or allowing the pain.
It's natural and healthy to feel grief in response to the loss of a loved one, yes, but again, the more you allow yourself to feel the pain, the less you suffer.

I think you disagree because you separate body and ''mind'', just like pain and suffering. My take on this is I prefer the simplest definitions and explanations, with as few abstract constructs (i.e. ''mind'') as possible. I don't believe we have to separate pain and suffering because when suffering is viewed as ''mental'' then often, if not always, this can still be observed in people's expressions, behaviour, and brains. When we scrap this notion of a ''mind'' then things will be clearer.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by blackraven

inavalan - Don't know what A human Being's response will be, but the way I see it: just like in a complete awakened state one can choose to embrace a feeling coming on like pain, sorrow and sadness or one can push it down into the subconscious and numb oneself to feeling anything at all or at least what would seem rational to most human beings.

If someone I loved died in a lucid dream I would hope that I would cry and maybe then, after shedding tears, will myself out of the dream.

You can do much better than that!

"In the dream state you operate under the same conditions, more or less, that are native to a consciousness not focused in physical reality. Many of your experiences, therefore, are precisely those you may meet after death. You may speak with dead friends or relatives, revisit the past, greet old classmates, walk down streets that existed fifty years earlier in physical time, travel through space without taking any physical time to do so, be met by guides, be instructed, teach others, perform meaningful work, solve problems, hallucinate."

—SS Chapter 10 "'Death' Conditions in Life": Session 538, June 29, 1970

[ocean breeze]

Originally Posted by A human Being

Suffering arises when we resist pain.

Correct. But how does emotional pain arise? Do you feel this is part of a conditioned/programmed mind?

[Wilderness]

Not necessary, you know when you see someone walk on a rake an it flies up an smashes em in the face? an then you think well maybe i wont do that, because i don't want the same outcome? we can learn from others mistakes through out history... but humanity keeps going round an round in circles.. so we suffer.. together. Its like you don't have to keep touching the hot stove humanity but there u go again an again doing that. Most of it has to do with people not knowing there stand as sovereign men an women and there nations/peoples true history so they get taken over by forging military occupations masquerading as there government and "leaders" instead of arrested for what they really are which is war criminals in international law.

[Wilderness]

double post

[A human Being]

Originally Posted by ocean breeze

Correct. But how does emotional pain arise? Do you feel this is part of a conditioned/programmed mind?

Ach... those are very complex questions, I wouldn't even know where to start with them. Interesting questions to consider though, so thanks for that :)