On Conception and Abortions --- From A Spiritist Perspective

Originally Posted by Kioma

My apologies for the confusion leadville.

no problem

In the UK abortion has been legal for decades. It was settled in the US once as well, but there are various groups who have made it a divisive issue for various reasons.

Even in the UK - which includes Northern Ireland, a particularly difficult region - abortion remains contentious albeit legally settled for the moment.
I spend half my year in the US and I've seen the pressure - markedly increased in recent years - exerted on certain political representatives and organisations to make it unlawful in the US.
At this exact moment of my writing I'm listening to a discussion on BBC Radio 4 'Woman's Hour' on this very subject of abortion, especially the situation in Ireland. Concerns remain.

No, 'we' are not 'fighting' at this time - but read the thread. You will see various opinions, some which compare abortion to murder. Do you not think that is sufficient motivation for some to FIGHT to see it ended?

You're certainly not fighting me because I am clear on this matter and have written elsewhere and often on the subject. I feel as you do - period.

It seems there are two kinds of people in politics these days - those who think people can make decisions for themselves, and those who think they should make decisions for everyone else. In the court of US public opinion the fight is very real, and very fierce.

no disagreement there!

Going further on this emotive subject, the spirit guidance that has influenced me for a few decades tells me that killing - abortion - is essentially wrong. Yet my personal approach remains that I consider the situation using a wider brief. I reconcile this by knowing spirit teachers and guides of any particular time tailor their message for their followers/listeners. In years to come spiritual teachers may address this sensitive subject differently; we'll see.

Something similar has been said about the teachings of Jesus delivered two millennia ago - they were right for audience of those days, and targeted to match their ability to understand matters of the spirit.

Originally Posted by Rah nam

I would agree with Native spirit, that this subject is a highly emotional one, and best left alone. But I am not emotional, in fact have very little emotions.
So I will try to look at it form a factual point of view.

She actually described the subject as 'emotive'. Facts would be nice but sometimes are elusive. ;)

Life as I understand it, is an independent existence in this reality.

That's human life. (or animal life in the case of animals)

A fetus can at best be seen to be on it's way to this existence. Do I kill a chicken if I eat an egg? It is a potential life, is it not? But then we don't have a problem with killing chickens in this society.

Vegans and vegetarians are likely to disagree; perspectives vary.

Some lament that spirits are lost in the non physical earth realm, or what ever they might name this realm.

Not everyone enjoys spiritual understanding. Those individuals may genuinely be concerned because they don't know what happens.

In my understanding a spirit connects with the fetus in most cases around 4 month and after.

What do you mean by the word 'connect'? The animating spirit of the child-to-be commits to animating the body from the moment of conception (guides tell us) but my approach is that the final point of total, irrevocable interpenetration by the spirit may not occur for quite some time, animation taking place 'at a distance' so to speak. The one certain point of total interpenetration is when the baby emerges into this world and begins functioning for itself.

Even if the spirit is connected and the baby is still born the spirit is pulled out of this reality. Up to a point where the body/mind/spirit complex makes it's own choices.

An animating spirit may withdraw at any point, even shortly after birth, but it's not "pulled out" as you put it by anything or anyone. The animating spirit may choose to discontinue its animation of the body. (Or, of course, may be forced to discontinue it if termination of the baby's life happens for another reason.)

Originally Posted by BigJohn

I think Elfin will enjoy reading your encouraging, upbuilding comments.

I do hope so because that was my intention.

[Rah nam]

leadville
She actually described the subject as 'emotive'. Facts would be nice but sometimes are elusive. ;)


Can you give me a definition of emotive?



Vegans and vegetarians are likely to disagree; perspectives vary.


I don't care what a vegan or vegetarian thinks or how they see the world.
I don't eat animals nor do I eat eggs, but don;t see what this has to do with anything.



What do you mean by the word 'connect'? The animating spirit of the child-to-be commits to animating the body from the moment of conception (guides tell us) but my approach is that the final point of total, irrevocable interpenetration by the spirit may not occur for quite some time, animation taking place 'at a distance' so to speak. The one certain point of total interpenetration is when the baby emerges into this world and begins functioning for itself.
An animating spirit may withdraw at any point, even shortly after birth, but it's not "pulled out" as you put it by anything or anyone. The animating spirit may choose to discontinue its animation of the body. (Or, of course, may be forced to discontinue it if termination of the baby's life happens for another reason.)


guides tell us sounds very generic. If your guides gave you this information, I will respect their view, if you have read it in a book, then I will strongly question it.
the spirit is not a marionette player. In fact, a small part will connected to the body, the greater part will remain in the astral or what ever realm we belong to. The spiritual structure is connected via the chakra system.
Once connected the spirit is there for life, and can not just disconnect, it can leave the body, during developing times and rarely spends time wile the body is in the womb, yet is always connected to it, in the same way as it is connected when it leaves during sleeping times. As soon as the body wakes up, the spirit is pulled back to the body.

Originally Posted by Rah nam

leadville
She actually described the subject as 'emotive'. Facts would be nice but sometimes are elusive. ;)


Can you give me a definition of emotive?

yes "arousing or able to arouse intense feeling."

Originally Posted by Rah nam

Vegans and vegetarians are likely to disagree; perspectives vary.

I don't care what a vegan or vegetarian thinks or how they see the world. I don't eat animals nor do I eat eggs, but don;t see what this has to do with anything.

I'm sorry you didn't see the point I was trying - but clearly failing - to make.

What you had written ealier was "Do I kill a chicken if I eat an egg? It is a potential life, is it not? But then we don't have a problem with killing chickens in this society. "

I followed that by trying to make the point that saying "we don't have a problem....." includes those who likely will see matters very differently from the way you do.

I accept you don't care what vegans or vegetarians say, though.

Three points I would like to make...

First is a word about the spiritual view. I see in this thread many claims that abortion is fundamentally wrong because a spirit becomes attached to the unborn. Let's examine that.

In any other context, if you ask someone about spirit and the spiritual view they will tell you that 'in spirit' time does not exist.

https://lonerwolf.com/mystical-experience/

Scroll down a ways and the page lists "9 characteristics of mystical experience". Number 2 is "There is no time and space".

I have experienced this myself, and I am sure others here have, that in that consciousness all of time is experienced as a single moment, past, present and future.

So it is said that a spirit chooses it's next life because it is aware of what is happening on earth, and it has 'planned' to undergo a life that will give it certain experiences and lessons, and it is able to do this because of it's spiritual awareness and perspective, giving it a strong prophetical sense. Others look at it in a simpler manner, that God just tells it what is going to happen so it can make it's choice. Different reasoning, but the same conclusion.

I personally don't believe in predestination, but given a spirit's sense of timelessness I believe a spirit can see events 'echoing' into the future because of current event inertia, at least far enough for it to make it's plan, far enough to prognosticate the direction of an entire life - but in the context of abortion people forget all that and decide a spirit can't seem to see ahead to the next 6 months and know that there is in fact no 'life' to be had?

That is the fundamental hypocrisy of the 'spiritual' view of abortion.


Secondly, I'd like to make a point about the movement to eliminate abortion in the US. I don't know about the anti-abortion movement in the UK, but here it is known as the 'Right-to-life' movement, and these are the VERY SAME people who campaign to eliminate distributing birth control to women and social welfare benefits to young mothers and their children. This makes it blatantly apparent that it's not really 'unborn' children that they care about at all, it's just about control of women's sexuality, and the punishment of what they see as "loose women".

Originally Posted by Rah nam

...Do I kill a chicken if I eat an egg?...

Lastly, let me say a few words about Rah nam's statement.

Exactly! Chickens and eggs are entirely different things. A chicken is NOT an egg, an acorn is NOT an oak tree, a blueprint is NOT a bridge. One becomes the other in the passage of time - but before that time has passed, one is NOT the other - except in the context of abortion. To some people even just semen has an imaginary life and personality and to waste it is the very same thing as killing an actual real person with self awareness and a life.

THAT is exactly what makes it an emotional issue is the IRRATIONAL opinions people have been told and have IRRATIONALLY accepted about it.

Originally Posted by Rah nam

What do you mean by the word 'connect'? The animating spirit of the child-to-be commits to animating the body from the moment of conception (guides tell us) but my approach is that the final point of total, irrevocable interpenetration by the spirit may not occur for quite some time, animation taking place 'at a distance' so to speak. The one certain point of total interpenetration is when the baby emerges into this world and begins functioning for itself.
An animating spirit may withdraw at any point, even shortly after birth, but it's not "pulled out" as you put it by anything or anyone. The animating spirit may choose to discontinue its animation of the body. (Or, of course, may be forced to discontinue it if termination of the baby's life happens for another reason.)


guides tell us sounds very generic. If your guides gave you this information, I will respect their view, if you have read it in a book, then I will strongly question it.
the spirit is not a marionette player. In fact, a small part will connected to the body, the greater part will remain in the astral or what ever realm we belong to. The spiritual structure is connected via the chakra system.
Once connected the spirit is there for life, and can not just disconnect, it can leave the body, during developing times and rarely spends time wile the body is in the womb, yet is always connected to it, in the same way as it is connected when it leaves during sleeping times. As soon as the body wakes up, the spirit is pulled back to the body.

Well first things first.... You didn't actually tell me what I asked about namely what you mean by the word 'connect' in the earlier posting. That was an important point leading to other ones. No matter but I'll address each of your points as I usually do for anyone.

Firstly I have to stress I didn't want you - or anyone - to be persuaded because it was my spirit guide telling me what I passed on for consideration. Why should you respect it just because it was from him? I would much prefer that you accepted - or rejected - details based wholly on their appeal or lack of it. Not because of whom they'd come from.

Next I have to respond that your understanding of the way an animating spirit interacts with its body-to-be is somewhat different from mine. So be it. I tell you and anyone else 'listening' only what I have been told.

Originally Posted by Kioma

Three points I would like to make...

First is a word about the spiritual view. I see in this thread many claims that abortion is fundamentally wrong because a spirit becomes attached to the unborn. Let's examine that.

Might we first look at the misunderstanding in that statement? One may justifiably hold the view that abortion is always wrong. It's what certain spirit guides say, perhaps many of them but I don't know that. What IS wrong, however, is asserting that a spirit "becomes attached to the unborn." The relationship is much deeper and complex than that.

In any other context, if you ask someone about spirit and the spiritual view they will tell you that 'in spirit' time does not exist.

https://lonerwolf.com/mystical-experience/

Scroll down a ways and the page lists "9 characteristics of mystical experience". Number 2 is "There is no time and space".

I have experienced this myself, and I am sure others here have, that in that consciousness all of time is experienced as a single moment, past, present and future.

There appears to be enough persuasive arguments and evidence that this is the case. I have certainly become persuaded when once I was not.

So it is said that a spirit chooses it's next life because it is aware of what is happening on earth, and it has 'planned' to undergo a life that will give it certain experiences and lessons, and it is able to do this because of it's spiritual awareness and perspective, giving it a strong prophetical sense.

I'm not familiar with the notion that it's down to any (quote) "prophetical sense" but I'm open to persuasion.

Others look at it in a simpler manner, that God just tells it what is going to happen so it can make it's choice. Different reasoning, but the same conclusion.

A notion that has no appeal for me.

I personally don't believe in predestination, but given a spirit's sense of timelessness I believe a spirit can see events 'echoing' into the future because of current event inertia, at least far enough for it to make it's plan, far enough to prognosticate the direction of an entire life - but in the context of abortion people forget all that and decide a spirit can't seem to see ahead to the next 6 months and know that there is in fact no 'life' to be had?

I don't follow.....

That is the fundamental hypocrisy of the 'spiritual' view of abortion.

hypocrisy? Isn't that somewhat dismissive of individuals trying to make sincere points?

Secondly, I'd like to make a point about the movement to eliminate abortion in the US. I don't know about the anti-abortion movement in the UK, but here it is known as the 'Right-to-life' movement, and these are the VERY SAME people who campaign to eliminate distributing birth control to women and social welfare benefits to young mothers and their children. This makes it blatantly apparent that it's not really 'unborn' children that they care about at all, it's just about control of women's sexuality, and the punishment of what they see as "loose women".

Here we run the risk of politicising an issue rather than considering the thread's title - Conception and Abortion from a Spiritist perspective.

Lastly, let me say a few words about Rah nam's statement.

Exactly! Chickens and eggs are entirely different things. A chicken is NOT an egg, an acorn is NOT an oak tree, a blueprint is NOT a bridge. One becomes the other in the passage of time - but before that time has passed, one is NOT the other - except in the context of abortion. To some people even just semen has an imaginary life and personality and to waste it is the very same thing as killing an actual real person with self awareness and a life.

THAT is exactly what makes it an emotional issue is the IRRATIONAL opinions people have been told and have IRRATIONALLY accepted about it.

There would probably be no point in even trying to discuss spiritual issues with anyone holding such views.

Originally Posted by BigJohn

In our screwy world, some might say you were born 'dead' - not aware of the spirit world whereas your sister was born 'alive'.

Is it not your sister who looks over you daily? So who is watching out for the other? The one watching out over the other is the one with the 'advantage'.

Very true... Absolutly very true... And of course I do know that...we are both very much "alive" ... But in real terms, she is more "alive " than I am!