Don't do that

[Catsquotl]

Originally Posted by winter light

And in my own way, I could interpret and apply that to my own experience even though I am not a formal meditator.

I think possibly the whole practice could be summarized as: slow down, pay attention, and breathe.

My priorities here are the Buddha (sage), the Sangha (community), and the Dharma (purpose). Slow down, pay attention, and breathe. Then what to do next becomes more clear after that.

Hey Light of winter,

If this is what works for you then by all means. Continue your practice.
Personally I think and experience the Dhamma as there being more to it than slowing down, breathing and paying attention.

That is to say, breathing sure, slowing down only when it has it's place. In the practice of right concentration for instance it's a natural side effect of the practice. When formally keeping the pleasant abiding,(sattipatthana) in mind in my experience my powers of attention seem to widen and my inner experience seems to speed up significantly to the point where it isn't strange to notice up to 30 to 50 different sensations and impressions a second. Hardly slowed down but peaceful non the less.

With that said I feel there are different ways of coming to the same end result. I.e. enlightenment if you will. That's why the Buddha in his years of teaching explained the same thing in so many ways. Some of those ways are meant to emphasize different skills for those with different thrills.

[Catsquotl]

Originally Posted by Gem

This is true. I wish I could have re-quoted the whole post.

The intention was to go through the philosophy in an organized way, and on 3 levels: the basic quoting of the words; the philosophical understanding of the words and; the subjective realization of how the understanding is true in your life.

Hi gem, To be honest I think the intention and the first two levels are admirable and very very doable. The 3d level however seems to be so personal that any discussion about has to end in agreeing to disagree or in other words to acknowledge that the subjective realization of the Dhamma is as different for each being as there are beings.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Catsquotl

the subjective realization of the Dhamma is as different for each being as there are beings.

I was watching a bunch of YouTubes today and realized meditation in itself is not the same in anybody. Like a room of 30 people meditating, all 30 are doing something different in my opinion. I remember also in the book Journey Of Souls we all go before "the elders" at some point. From persons memories of interacting with the elders, they never tell you what to do or judge you in anyway. It's more like they ask you, "so how do you think you did?" It's all up to us as individuals what we want our now and future to be.

I don't think religious or spiritual practices are a good indicator of a persons development. I think kindness, goodness, high morals, stuff like that is more of an indicator.

[Gem]

In Buddhism we usually start with the moral component. Some moral vows are taken prior to any instruction (typically 5 silas), but this thread only covers the saitpatthana sutta, so I left morality out - for now at least.

In the practical sense, morality is critical because immorality stems from aversion and craving and that whole reactive dilemma. How you react determines the kind of will you generate, and thereby, our own caused suffering is emanated outward to hurt and harm others.

The purpose of meditation according the Satipatthana is purification, overcoming sorrow, staying the path of truth, and liberation. Essentially, it is a healing strategy which removes obstacles and opens the channel to the infinite outpouring of love.

This approach pierces deep into the body/mind life-form to take out all of the impurities, which are freed from their lodgements and resolved in pure awareness. It's a delicate process, but one that requires strength in determination, patience, persistence and mindful equanimity. It is a serious undertaking, and the path of truth is difficult in ways you haven't imagined.

This is how I explain it: I like doing very difficult things such as breaking rocks and digging up large tree stumps. It's the kind of work where you just keep chipping away until something gives. Several times along the way you are sure the job has you beat, that it's just too big and you can't do it. That you were crazy for trying. It's impossible. But you still carry on, and eventually the log moves just a tiny bit, and once it moves, you just know it's gonna come out. Then there comes that time when you get down in there with your back against the hole and push that stump with all the strength in your legs - and it breaks loose.

Why so pleased? The whole exercise was pain and all you are left with is a bloody big hole in the ground, but it's rewarding. Satisfying. It's good. The determination and persistence paid off. You overcame everything, surpassed all the obstacles...

...but you have to do the work to get the results.

The big stump in you is taken out by a gradual process of going deeper, revealing the roots that bind and cutting them away. After a lot of effort, persistence and tenacity, enough roots have been severed that the big log moves a little, and then you know, only a few small tethers remain and this whole mass will be free to come out. Then it's out and there is an empty place where the mass used to be - but there's still a healing wound from that operation which needs protection and care.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Maisy

One is a tool of the soul or true self and one is basically a torture instrument to trigger the brain into producing negative emotions.

the basic gist of it in my thinking is the brain is like a computer that the soul uses; this reality basically encourages it to be programmed 'negatively' like you've alluded to and you see that all around you in what others are doing, but, society encourages many to try to override this 'easy' path for various reasons and go to a lot of effort to rig the programming toward 'positivity'. So there is an ongoing fight between one side of the 'coin' and the other and basically I think this reality is rigged so it cannot be resolved. Endless teeter-totter.

At least I'm sure you can't resolve it while asleep lol... too many unresolved contradictions in the programming. But *maybe* someone who dared to stay awake and do something other than just sop up the suns rays would have a prayer of finding a path through it but I'm not there so I really don't know... that was one of my theories, this reality is designed to make us unhappy so that we won't be able to think we found the one true path for any indefinite period, then give up, and die.

incidentally I think it is the tendency to want to just let the brain compute and follow its edicts that makes it so hard to 'wake up'. Over and over I've had a tendency to just 'set a course' that I could just follow... and then go on autopilot to follow it... so after I think i got the programming right I put my attention on following what the brain says to do next... which usually means falling right back to sleep...

well that is what I think anyway

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

Endless teeter-totter.

Yes for sure. I think the biggest trick (to create self centeredness) is the competition aspect of physical life as a being. Oh and the seeking of pleasure. You put 7 animals in a box and say ok there is only enough food and shelter and money (to buy pleasure) for 4 of you, go! It blows my mind how many people have billions are dollars and instead of providing housing for others, they buy 5 giant houses for themselves with all that money. Where is the empathy and compassion for others?

All they care about is their own pleasure. The greed of some is crazy. Zero cares about others. Buy a house for 200k, add cosmetics to basically lie and make it look newer, sell it for 500k a week later. I see that every day. Everyone needs a house! It's now just another thing to sell to make money. House prices more than doubled from 2020 to 2022. Banks and states cooperate with this greed because taxes collected go up with home value as does interest earned by banks. But it means millions of homeless people living in tents. Housing should not be used as a way to profit in my opinion. It's a human right and basic need. If I was in charge I would make it illegal to profit from a home re-sale. Take the greed and profit out of housing.

Morality, empathy, compassion, these are the highest spiritual traits. Care for others. Seeing the other as yourself. Putting others before yourself. Doing no harm to others. Treating others how you would want to be treated. The fact we are individuals with this innate desire for pleasure and being self centered does not mean we have to be. I think one could just focus on loving everyone as oneself, to not have any self centeredness, and make as much spiritual progress as any other method or goal. In fact, I think it's the same thing! Like someone who meditates 10 hours a day (in the right way) ends up at the same place without self centeredness and full of empathy and compassion for others. The loving kindness of Buddhism.

[FallingLeaves]

oh don't get me started on the greedy people! They seem all about aquiring more and more, and desiring to tell others who to be...

and then they say they follow christ...

but I think christ was more about helping people, compassion, giving people the ability to have self-direction. It just drives me batty that they can arrogantly claim to be his followers yet will have nothing to do with his teachings...

but i guess he saw it coming so I presume it is well in hand

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Gem

that it's just too big and you can't do it. That you were crazy for trying. It's impossible. But you still carry on,

That is very satisfying. One time I decided to replace a part in my car. So I watched youtubes on it and tried it. I started at 7am and did not finish until 10pm. I would not give up! I am still surprised I was able to do it. But then another time I decided to lay some floor ceramic tiles in a kitchen. Took me all day and I did it... but it came out terrible. I was surprised how hard it was and how bad I did. I did everything how I saw others doing it, but just did not have the skill I guess.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

They seem all about acquiring more and more,

I was thinking about how we leave with nothing earlier, absolutely nothing. It is pretty mind boggling when you think about it. Not one shoe, one penny, your toothbrush, not one sock. Do we really own anything? Because in the end we leave it behind and somebody else gets it. All of our stuff. Bye forever!

We can be attached to so much. Sometimes I really get into a tv show or a movie and find out there is going to be a sequel or another season and I think, wow, if I died before it came out could I see it in the astral world?

People can be addicted to food and drinks as well. Like having coffee every morning. Every morning for 70 years then you pass, can't take coffee with you or a coffee cup. Not even your bed you sleep in. Not a blanket or a shirt. No make up, no soap, no hair brush. And you usually do it alone. No one comes with you, though some say departed loved ones will greet you on the other side.

On earth, the very rich have a lot and they very poor have nothing, but then seems like passing is a great equalizer. I wonder what do we take,? What has a value in the next place we go? I guess what we learned, and did, and how we treated ourselves and others is what will have a value. The karma we created or got rid of. The suffering we created in ourselves or others or the suffering we ended in ourselves and others.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Maisy

On earth, the very rich have a lot and they very poor have nothing, but then seems like passing is a great equalizer. I wonder what do we take,? What has a value in the next place we go? I guess what we learned, and did, and how we treated ourselves and others is what will have a value.

i think it is like getting out of a car, while you are in a car you kind of identify with the car and other people see the car more than they see you... but when you get out of the car you are still you and you kinda become different while being in the car and relating to life as the car. Just when you get out of the car and trade it for a new one, a lot of the things that happen 'fast' go away and get replaced... and since you are used to focussing on the fast you don't really remember who you really are when you have a new car... kinda like taking off clothes but we were very identified with the clothes we had and didn't want to lose them... but there is still 'us' somehow beneath whatever the clothes we had were...

by the way in my view the poor don't have 'nothing'.... they have something valuable that the rich usually can't attain. Jesus alluded to that when he told that rich guy to give away all their money and follow him lol...

It is just sociable to not realize that... and say everything is slanted toward the rich... because yeah material reality seems slanted toward the rich, the way people have chosen to admire it.

But from what I've been able to gather, poorer people are being (slowly) taught to see the 'kingdom of god' which is everywhere around us and within us, while rich people are mostly being taught only to tell poor people what to do and to aquire material things in the external world... and it is the allowance of the usually 'mean' activities of 'higher' people that are enabling this to happen. I've reflected if they had any idea how helpful they are being they would quit with this, but since they can think they are being mean they are happy.

So everything has its place I guess.... even though as a society we have ideas about what all this *should* be like and don't much agree with sentiments such as the ones I've just shared... because everyone knows, rich and powerful is the only way to get all the things we have been told to want and as a society that we agree we *should* want. But that is the trick, realizing there are things you can want that are more interesting that what society admires lol... kingdom of god is high on the list for me