Don't do that

[sky]

[Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker]
"once we abide in our natural state effortlessly, what else is there to be done"?

Nothing..... it's done.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Maisy

Recognize when we have lost it? Using the terms waking up or going to sleep as metaphors maybe? So noticing when we have drifted unknowingly back to sleep.(Which would be waking up.) Or is your experience that once one "wakes up" or effortlessly abides in our natural state, we don't fall back at some point to normal habitual thought following delusional conflict filled reactionary moments?

All of which requires ' effort '....

[Unseeking Seeker]

@ Maisy ~ we have become so accustomed to continuously having thought forms appear and disappear that we cannot imagine anymore that we can be aware, simply aware as awareness itself, without thinking. It is not stupor or sleep. In fact, in sleep, thought forms yet appear in what we call dreams.

Consider meditation. At a rudimentary level we are asked to choose any object, say, a mantra, a candle flame, a deity, watching breath etc, holding only that object in focus without permitting anything else. Once we get to that stage, we are then asked to drop the object as well. We are then as awareness without object. A singularity of sorts, silence. This is our natural state. To abide therein as a default orientation effortlessly requires relegating thought to its role as an instrument, to be used when needed, otherwise rested.

The process of the ‘dropping away of identity’ is not easy simply because we are absolutely identified with mind-body. After all, we live in it, day and night. However, if we are slowly able to just be, free of identity, free from memory, free from desire & fear, then without the script we’ve constructed that represents us as a this or that, our Self shines forth as a luminous, self-existent, peaceful, formless and complete being, genderless, radiant, with no going or coming or doing to be done. As Ramana said ‘look for that that does not come and go, for we are That’, or words to that effect.

We can then ‘carry back’ to body consciousness, this recognition of who we are. Needless to say, our life perspective is never the same again, although we may yet oscillate until the final assimilation of wisdom within. We may say, there is only the Self. Of course, seeing is believing, so this cannot be something we can ‘transfer’ to ‘others’, within the lucid dream we call life.

The processes and practices we employ essentially are aimed at internalising attention, to escape the hold thoughts and senses exert on us. Thus surrender; we surrender this (identity) to that (God or powers that be). Then finally, we merge with That or God or the singularity, becoming It, which we always were but knew not. Hence the adage ‘Tat tvam asi’ ~ That thou art.

[Gem]

@ US, the only way to conclude anything forceful is by arriving with preconceived notions and not listening to anything said in the thread. Early in the thread when I noticed this, I suggested to you that it's best to come with an empty cup. The thread is at a pretty late stage now, and it's too late to go back the body and mind sections in which 'mere understanding and mere awareness' was repeated over and over again.

The thread was organised into steps to progressively uncover finer nuances with every verse until we arrived here, where we have not only dissected the senses and the arising of suffering, but pinpointed the precise site of its cause: where mind creates matter and matter creates mind with felt sensation materialising into and from the six senses. We're way past the garlands at this point. Now we are where the cause is seen clearly and precisely identified. With this, the insight that suffering can end truly dawns on us.

[Unseeking Seeker]

@ Gem ~ sure, please carry on

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Gem

@ US, the only way to conclude anything forceful is by arriving with preconceived notions and not listening to anything said in the thread. Early in the thread when I noticed this, I suggested to you that it's best… Now we are where the cause is seen clearly and precisely identified. With this, the insight that suffering can end truly dawns on us.

Hi Gem.

I am a bit confused by this.

When you say, the thread was created as steps to identify finer nuances with every verse. What actually do you want from those reading and responding? Obviously as far as I can gather, must reading here have already identified these steps so the contribution seems to relate more from a realized perspective in different forms of your relating? Am I the only one noticing this?

Also too Maisy asked a question as a form of enquiry which I felt was valid in a larger context of your thread.


Can you just explain for my benefit what kind of example of response your expecting?

Also when you say ‘we are way past the garlands’ - what does that mean?


I apologize for this interruption but I am not quite understanding how you feel this thread should flow.

Thank you ��

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

It naturally gives others permission to be seen and feel as they need for them.

I'll take that to heart. I have a day ahead involving distracting circumstances, and I think the attitude you're suggesting is the way through.

At first you know the first truth 'there is suffering' but don't understand the cause very well. At that time it seems like all the events and people in the world are affecting you, and since you're affected, you react to everything and thereby exert your force to resist what's happening or fix the world so nothing bad will ever happen you - so everything will always be perfect. You see everyone is offended these days - reacting to everything, pushing back, attempting to control, and creating conditions that give rise to more misery.

At some time you start to feel a bit doomed because you can't control the world. There will always be hard things as surely as there will always be winters. Somewhere you get the idea that suffering has a cause which isn't 'out there'. Then focus shifts from the hopeless situation of this brutal unjust world, to an inquiry into what's really going on with myself - and with that comes optimism that maybe there's a resolution.

With this meditation as I describe it, contrary to what US is saying, there are some preparations involving living morally in trust, and then it's 'sit up and feel yourself breathing'. The whole process of being affected-reacting-exerting-resisting ceases when the observation begins (at least to the degree you are able). I have also noticed on retreats that people including myself take a long time to drop all exertions and 'just observe'. It's understandable because, if you leave everything to be 'as it is', and not control anything - what will become of me?

It is a particular way for it to work from the surface of quieting the mind all the way down to undermining the ego's grip at its most fundamental level, and when there is merely awareness it is working in the way nature works it, and not in the way you want it to.

Anyway... I lost track... but this is the purification that works in its own way. At this point I think it's shifted from being theoretical to real lives and actual human suffering, and we have become curious enough about The Cessation of Suffering to start taking things a bit more seriously.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Hi Gem.I apologize for this interruption but I am not quite understanding how you feel this thread should flow.

From my perspective there was a shift during the discussion about the arising of suffering from a more theoretical and philosophical perspective to the perspective of the actuality of human suffering in real life... which is why I thought it became more serious... and I think that's natural because the next section on the cessation of suffering is where things start to get real.

I was writing somewhere else but I think I'll paste it here because I also thought the premise USS presented here was a false dichotomy that created the wrong impression and undermined what I'm doing with this thread. I don't want people to think there's forcefulness going on here and a celebration over there, when real life is not defined by this vs. that but is interwoven and multidimensional. Indeed this thread is a darker hole and maybe the light coming from above is tempting, but let me explain that in a more integrated way:

I think, if there's someone lurking just reading all the posts, a real person with real human suffering, putting a garland around their neck is nice, but by tomorrow the flowers will wither and rot, and then it's just rubbish to be thrown away.

Someone might be really curious at about their cause of suffering and how it can end, and that's not a light subject. Then someone else says, forget all that forceful negation etc. there's a celebration over here; when I'm saying, if you want the water you have to dig the well. It's work.

At the moment there's a hard situation for me involving tragic circumstances which many people are unhappy over, but it is a celebration that brings people together in happiness at the same time. These things are not one dimensional, the dichotomy is false, and you can actually be more content just digging your well.

The seriousness is the happiness, and if people treated it as light and trivial it would be disgusting. So much work goes into it so it turns out just right because we want everyone to come together in a shared space. The journey is a trial - people get upset along the way - and a great party doesn't come easy!

In the end the flowers are dead, there's a mess to pick up, the celebration is over and it's back to digging. That's what gets the water.

----------------------

I think ideally we would narrow down on the topic, and just discuss the arising of suffering if that's the section that was just covered, and then the same with the cessation of suffering when that section is covered next, but that's way too structured for a forum and I don't hold that expectation. The thread does, however, have structure and progresses in an ordered way covering the teaching one section at a time, verse by verse, with space for discussions between verses. Basically it's a loose structure where anything goes, but what I don't want is any insinuation that this here is not much good and there's something way better over there. That's what I think the false dichotomy did, and it did so by using a false premise.

[Unseeking Seeker]

@ Gem ~ it’s true what you say, our paths are different and I readily confess that I’ve not studied any scriptures other than browsing through to satisfy lower mind.

I have no urge within to convince anyone of what holds true for me in direct experience. However, we all look for validations and so I do share what I know.

The recognitions of truth require fragmented thought to be dropped. For me, this is a prerequisite to spiritual progress. We cannot get to, unless we first let go. So, the starting point itself is where our paths seemingly diverge. That’s ok.

I did earlier also refrain from commenting because you felt I was derailing the thread but then I felt you were receptive to open discussion, which it seems is not the case. So, I’ll just leave you to it then, with this poem ~ enjoy!

How receptive are we
to taking a detour,
simply breaking routine,
for that’s how we may see,
the hitherto unseen?

How receptive are we,
to an opposing view,
outside our comfort zone,
for who knows that’s how we
may come into our own?

How receptive are we
in ending resistance,
that whence we surrender,
we’re in the here and now,
awestruck thus in wonder?

How receptive are we
to meld head with our heart,
ending inner conflict,
that we may stand erect,
with our soul now love inked?

For the curious, the poetry form employed is called Monchielle Stanza

[Catsquotl]

I'll interject this just quickly for those that want to study the Satipatthana.
satipatthana-the-direct-path-to-realization/.

A book written by Venerable Analayo.

Unlike more popular books on the subject, he is not out to establish the exclusive validity of one particular system of meditation as against others; his aim, rather, is to explore the sutta as a wide-ranging and multi-faceted source of guidance which allows for alternative interpretations and approaches to practice.

On a personal note, Even though the garlands will wither and die, they ease some of the suffering for the time being. Sometimes in order to wake up and walk the path a garland can be very very helpful.