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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Lifestyle > Vegetarian & Vegan

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  #11  
Old 19-06-2020, 07:54 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah
Why do you think Game Changers is fabrication? And which nutrients (besides B12) do you think are hard to get on a vegan diet?

Protein and fats from animal food are superior compared to plant foods. Also, iron and vitamin K in animal foods are superior to the ones found in plant foods. Yes, you can find your protein, iron, vitamin K in plants but it's of inferior quality. You could do well on less protein but we're talking about developing muscle mass here, the topic being the 'Game Changers'. I do not believe this is necessarily genuine and there might just be social media influencers that go vegan for careerist reasons once they are already muscular whilst eating eggs/dairy/meat. The people behind the 'Game Changers' are vegans and I've seen too many claims already by vegans that have been proven wrong concerning human health and evolution. How can you be sure these people aren't caught up in their proselytizing? I'm not convinced they are free of bias.

Last edited by Altair : 19-06-2020 at 08:40 AM.
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  #12  
Old 20-06-2020, 01:46 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by Debrah
Why do you think Game Changers is fabrication? And which nutrients (besides B12) do you think are hard to get on a vegan diet?

As far as growing muscle on only plant food, Nimai Delgado did it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-VNXCSGgsg He grew up in a Hare Krishna community (which included dairy use), and went vegan in his late teens or early 20's when he decided that he would be a poster guy for what can be accomplished with regards to health and body building on an entirely plant diet. If you look at the video linked, about 5 minutes in, his photo appears on the cover of Muscle & Fitness and you can see right there, what is objectively possible on an all plant diet. Beautiful young man.

The average American or Canadians eats more protein than needed so it isn't necessary to eat a ridiculous amount of food to get adequate protein. About 6 years ago, due to my age, my doctor ordered a blood panel to check my protein levels, inflammation levels, cholesterol, all that sort of thing and everything was perfect. And I definitely have never eaten more food just to get my needed protein. 118 lbs today, 5'4" so I'm obviously not overeating by any means.

Here's another link to a Nimai video where he talks about what he eats in order to fuel his muscles and their growth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNUm1Ed6UJ8. or you could try the following if you're curious enough. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwfwEGbeyT4&t=160s




There are some suspicions in the muscle world about Nimai's steroid use because it is unlikely that people can look like that without them, and it is possible he has used, but if he has or has not is not as relevant as his obvious genetic gift when it comes to building muscle. The idea that 'you too can build muscle' like him is dependent on having the same genetic gift, which is probably less than 1% of individuals. Individuals who want to build muscle will have a genetic potential which they will not be able to exceed, and that's what can be achieved on a vegan diet. The other consideration (albeit mosty irrelevant) is his diet included dairy during his upbringing.



Because a high protein diet is optimal for muscle maintenance or growth, Namai supplements with a plant based protein powder, includes 'fake meats' in his diet and includes a protein food at every meal. People who are not trying to preserve or grow muscle mass don't need as much protein, so when discussing 'adequate protein', that depends on the lifestyle and body-composition goals of individuals. However, it is very unlikely that a well rounded vegan diet will not provide ample protein in terms of not being deficient.


The point that animal food has 'better quality' protein is a little misleading since vegans can get all their essential amino acids by consuming a range of different protein foods, and simply eat a little more protein than an omnivore would. Some essential micronutrients are more bioavailable from animal products, but again, a vegan can simple eat a bit more of such nutrients and not become deficient. Hence, I personally don't worry about the 'quality' and consider the term a misnomer in this context. It mostly refers to bioavailability so it boils down to 'as long as you get enough'.
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  #13  
Old 20-06-2020, 02:50 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by Altair
Protein and fats from animal food are superior compared to plant foods. Also, iron and vitamin K in animal foods are superior to the ones found in plant foods. Yes, you can find your protein, iron, vitamin K in plants but it's of inferior quality. You could do well on less protein but we're talking about developing muscle mass here, the topic being the 'Game Changers'. I do not believe this is necessarily genuine and there might just be social media influencers that go vegan for careerist reasons once they are already muscular whilst eating eggs/dairy/meat. The people behind the 'Game Changers' are vegans and I've seen too many claims already by vegans that have been proven wrong concerning human health and evolution. How can you be sure these people aren't caught up in their proselytizing? I'm not convinced they are free of bias.




There is very obvious strong bias in the Game Changers, and the film is a terrible information source, but as advocacy flick that promotes veganism, bias is to be expected, and the general message that people can achieve high levels of athletic performance on vegan food comes across pretty well, and the film is entertaining enough.


Namai is mentioned a lot here so I just want to discuss the probability of steroid use. It is reasonable to suspect his use for various reasons, but that's not to say he definitely has used. It is truly remarkable when a natural body builder is able to compete with steriod users on a pro stage (where everyone is on the juice). If and when that happens, the natural competitor is a genetic freak when it comes to building muscle.

The strongman, Patrik Baboumian, is also a remarkable individual, but it's not at all unlikely that he has used steroids at least at some stage of his professional body building and strongman career.


Other featured athletes in the film may also be steroid users. It's very likely that some are seeing that steriod use is common in elite level sports. However, since this is true across the board, it does not represent a competitive advantage per-se. However, it is reasonable to consider that the 'gains' promoted in the film are not in the spirit of full disclosure as to how exactly these athletes achieved those levels of performance.

That said, I have no to reason to claim that being a vegan disadvantages an athlete as such, and I think the main message of the film is to bust the myth that you cannot attain high level physique or physical performance as a vegan.
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  #14  
Old 20-06-2020, 02:39 PM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Protein and fats from animal food are superior compared to plant foods. Also, iron and vitamin K in animal foods are superior to the ones found in plant foods. Yes, you can find your protein, iron, vitamin K in plants but it's of inferior quality. You could do well on less protein but we're talking about developing muscle mass here, the topic being the 'Game Changers'. I do not believe this is necessarily genuine and there might just be social media influencers that go vegan for careerist reasons once they are already muscular whilst eating eggs/dairy/meat. The people behind the 'Game Changers' are vegans and I've seen too many claims already by vegans that have been proven wrong concerning human health and evolution. How can you be sure these people aren't caught up in their proselytizing? I'm not convinced they are free of bias.


No animal fat and proteins aren't superior. Based on science, Health Canada recently amended their 'food pyramid' to demote meat and milk as 'essential'. They suggested that protein needs be predominantly obtained through plants (legumes, beans) and milk doesn't even get a mention except as an occasional 'dip' for sticking veggies in, but they did say hydration from water is essential. https://nationalpost.com/health/heal...ood-guide-2019

As well, there are half a dozen hospitals in the USA that now include vegan options and one of them, Texas Midland Memorial Hospital, which actively promotes a vegan diet on their patient menu (better for optimal healing). In their cafeteria vegan options are also available and they now run classes for patients, staff and the general public to learn how to cook balanced vegan meals. Your assertion that a meat diet is optimal is a fantasy which is why this hospital is actively going the other way. https://www.midlandhealth.org/main/p...ased-nutrition

If you take the time to look at any of the information provided via the Nimai Delgado videos, he talks about his muscle development on a vegan diet and from the perspective of someone who has NEVER EATEN MEAT IN HIS LIFE. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-VNXCSGgsg

So you've made several allegations there and each one without any proof.
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  #15  
Old 20-06-2020, 02:42 PM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
There is very obvious strong bias in the Game Changers, and the film is a terrible information source, but as advocacy flick that promotes veganism, bias is to be expected, and the general message that people can achieve high levels of athletic performance on vegan food comes across pretty well, and the film is entertaining enough.


Namai is mentioned a lot here so I just want to discuss the probability of steroid use. It is reasonable to suspect his use for various reasons, but that's not to say he definitely has used. It is truly remarkable when a natural body builder is able to compete with steriod users on a pro stage (where everyone is on the juice). If and when that happens, the natural competitor is a genetic freak when it comes to building muscle.

The strongman, Patrik Baboumian, is also a remarkable individual, but it's not at all unlikely that he has used steroids at least at some stage of his professional body building and strongman career.


Other featured athletes in the film may also be steroid users. It's very likely that some are seeing that steriod use is common in elite level sports. However, since this is true across the board, it does not represent a competitive advantage per-se. However, it is reasonable to consider that the 'gains' promoted in the film are not in the spirit of full disclosure as to how exactly these athletes achieved those levels of performance.

That said, I have no to reason to claim that being a vegan disadvantages an athlete as such, and I think the main message of the film is to bust the myth that you cannot attain high level physique or physical performance as a vegan.




While I haven't researched the other individuals, Nimai has stated categorically that he has never used Steroids, only PLANTS. It also seems to me that your casual mention of all those folks and steroids, is 'working the spin' to make a point that you have no proof of. In other words, rumour production. And we should all be careful to not do that. People's reputations are always at risk from unfounded rumours.

https://www.plantbasednews.org/lifes...-used-steroids

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HUzxf-LPEE
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  #16  
Old 20-06-2020, 03:01 PM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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Another interesting professional body builder is Torre Washington. As a Rastafarian who refused to eat meat of any sort including fish or chicken, he decided to go vegan in 1998. His first competition was in 2009.


https://www.greatveganathletes.com/t...n-bodybuilder/
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  #17  
Old 20-06-2020, 03:43 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah
While I haven't researched the other individuals, Nimai has stated categorically that he has never used Steroids, only PLANTS. It also seems to me that your casual mention of all those folks and steroids, is 'working the spin' to make a point that you have no proof of. In other words, rumour production. And we should all be careful to not do that. People's reputations are always at risk from unfounded rumours.

https://www.plantbasednews.org/lifes...-used-steroids

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HUzxf-LPEE




Sometimes people state things that are not true, and it is very common in the muscle and strength world to lie about drug use, especially where sponsorship money is involved. I don't know if he uses steroids or not; only that he competes in an untested federation against athletes who are all on the juice, which is really quite unheard of. If he is natural, he would have to have incredible, one-in-a-million genetics for muscle building. My point is not that, though. My point is he has either taken steroids or he has one-in-a-million genetics, and his freakishly muscular physique is not just diet and hard training. I think people should develop muscle to their genetic potential if they are interested in muscle and strength but understand we each have our genetic potential in that regard.
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  #18  
Old 20-06-2020, 03:50 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Government's advise and recommendations are not the same as the science itself. Governments have agendas and change views every couple of years or decades but cannot change human evolution. The science can tell us how we evolved and animal food contains nutrients (iron, vitamin K, calcium) that are superior to the ones found in plants and contains vitamins (B12, D) not found in plant food (fortifications excluded, which is basically a form of acceptable cheating). This isn't just a matter of quantity.

A vegan can eat as many calcium enriched plants as he wants or take vitamin B12 and D pills but a glass of milk or some eggs or fish will be superior (not to mention the issue of sheep wool, look into that). Veganism is about (farm) animal ethics, it's not about health. There are no vegan civilizations and there's a reason for that.
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  #19  
Old 20-06-2020, 04:47 PM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Government's advise and recommendations are not the same as the science itself. Governments have agendas and change views every couple of years or decades but cannot change human evolution. The science can tell us how we evolved and animal food contains nutrients (iron, vitamin K, calcium) that are superior to the ones found in plants and contains vitamins (B12, D) not found in plant food (fortifications excluded, which is basically a form of acceptable cheating). This isn't just a matter of quantity.

A vegan can eat as many calcium enriched plants as he wants or take vitamin B12 and D pills but a glass of milk or some eggs or fish will be superior (not to mention the issue of sheep wool, look into that). Veganism is about (farm) animal ethics, it's not about health. There are no vegan civilizations and there's a reason for that.

When Health Canada revised their suggestions, they did it after reviewing what the science says and for a change, without any input from the meat and dairy industries. Health Canada is not attached to a party so government agenda's are unlikely to be part of the equation particularly as industry was excluded. Because as we all know, industries do pressure governments.

With regards to your assertions about evolution, somewhere here I've previously included a link to a doctor who talks in quite good detail, about how our teeth, jaws and digestive system evolved and what sort of food stuffs are optimum for the human animal. I'll be happy to look that video up for you if you care to see it.

And for future reference, B12 is not inherent in animal tissue any more than it is in yours, which is why it is added to animal feed. If you open this link, you'll see a list of ingredients in chicken feed. Note the supplemented B12. https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_library...5D8&showText=1

And if you go down to table 9 in this other link, you'll see where B12 is added to pig feed. http://porkgateway.org/resource/comp...r-swine-diets/

So essentially, when you eat meat these days, you're still consuming a supplement just like I am except yours is detoured through an animal.
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  #20  
Old 20-06-2020, 04:52 PM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Sometimes people state things that are not true, and it is very common in the muscle and strength world to lie about drug use, especially where sponsorship money is involved. I don't know if he uses steroids or not; only that he competes in an untested federation against athletes who are all on the juice, which is really quite unheard of. If he is natural, he would have to have incredible, one-in-a-million genetics for muscle building. My point is not that, though. My point is he has either taken steroids or he has one-in-a-million genetics, and his freakishly muscular physique is not just diet and hard training. I think people should develop muscle to their genetic potential if they are interested in muscle and strength but understand we each have our genetic potential in that regard.

OMG, call him a liar just to hang onto your point. I'm beyond amazed. Maybe I should hold that as my philosophy whenever you speak. Or Altair, or any of the other people who share here.
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