Q: What does "no karma can lead to Jnana" mean?

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

You're playing the intellectual but there's something beyond all of that.

Google Gnosis.

Although this message wasn't directed to me, your point is right on target - Gnosis.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

y experience is our response to the information acquired by our five senses and, as Anil Seth said, "We hallucinate our realities." Hoffman said, "The objective reality is that all reality is subjective."

I understand the limits of the language, so I contextualise meaning so that the terms take on meaning in relation to the narrative, but our typical distinction between objective and subjective omits the notion that subjective truth can be universal. For example, 'this is not permanent' makes a statement which is true according to anyone's subjective experience - so I'm with Hoffman 99%, but he's not mused on subjective universality.

I'm also agreeable that we 'hallucinate our realities'. But he implies, as does Watts, that there is an objective reality, or actual information, which we have no access to besides the sense doors. I take that further to say consciousness, the senses and the lived experience occur together and there is no prior reality or actual information behind the contingent universe. However, there is something else, and even if all things and the entire space they occupy miraculously vanished, existence itself is indestructible and can't be extinguished.

[movingalways]

Originally Posted by eputkonen

A: No personal action (current or past) will result in enlightenment. Karma is action and consequences of action, but enlightenment is more of a "grace" and is not caused by anything a "me" does.

Since there is no such thing as personal action, there is also no such thing as karma. Belief in both may be necessary for the sake of a gradual release of attachment to the idea of a separate self, but eventually, all beliefs that result in the perception of a subjective-objective divided awareness are dropped. Why? Because they are not true.

"Grace" is a helpful word as it puts a name to the non-divided feeling sense when there is the 'aha' moment of enlightenment, but of course, eventually even the attachment to the feeling of "grace' is dropped.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Although this message wasn't directed to me, your point is right on target - Gnosis.

Thank you

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by movingalways

Since there is no such thing as personal action, there is also no such thing as karma. Belief in both may be necessary for the sake of a gradual release of attachment to the idea of a separate self, but eventually, all beliefs that result in the perception of a subjective-objective divided awareness are dropped. Why? Because they are not true.

This may be true from an absolute perspective but while we are in form we experience both absolute and relative existence.

For those who only know relative existence then personal action and karma are very much part of that existence. Such karma does not depend on belief - there are countless people who may never have heard of karma but who are still subject to it.

I am never sure how helpful it is to deny the reality of relative existence to those who only know relative existence. Everything is real on its own level, even if it is an illusion from a greater perspective.

Peace

Originally Posted by iamthat

Everything is real on its own level, even if it is an illusion from a greater perspective.

Like a dream seems very much real unless one becomes lucid or until one physically awakens.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by iamthat

This may be true from an absolute perspective but while we are in form we experience both absolute and relative existence.

Yes of course . What seems to happen however is those from an individual relative perspective try and play God from the absolute .

Individuality is individual for a reason . The clue is in the title . It doesn't mean that the individual is separate from the absolute, but from a point of self awareness the individual is self evident .

You have the Self realised and you have the unrealised . You have selfishness and selflessness, all has a bearing on oneself and where one is at within themselves .

Karma has so many meanings to some, just like everything else does, but as I know karma to be based upon my own experiences of it, it mainly reflects one's intent projected out as thoughts and actions . Even the blissed out Guru bunnies create Karma, but if one believes that Karma is this nasty payback thingy then one would believe that this is not possible .

If one doesn't believe that it's possible to experience individuality and yet not be separate from all there is, then again, one would not believe in karma or anything else associated with individuality, and yet they display this admirably while exercising their beliefs on it .


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by iamthat

I am never sure how helpful it is to deny the reality of relative existence to those who only know relative existence. Everything is real on its own level, even if it is an illusion from a greater perspective.

Peace

I had an old recording going on in the background of Leslie Flints physical mediumship earlier today . He had some of the same spirits as I have had coming through, and felt the urge to feel the energy of it today ..

There was the communication of some chap called George Bakewell and he was saying to the circle that the spirit world is just as real as the physical world is to us, but in different ways . From the physical perspective the spirit world would seem illusory in some ways and vice versa, because it depends on our vibratory rate that is part of our experience .

It pretty well sums up what you have said here .

I totally agree .


x daz x

[Native spirit]

As this post is going off topic and some are rude this is now closed



Namaste