Tradition and the resistance to change.

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Iamit

There are many views about Schizophrenia. I prefer the one that sees it as the collapse of the ego defined as the character/personality that we think we are, For some this character/ personality is really an essential defensive structure, constructed by mind in response to rejection/punishment.

To my “Aristotelian thinking” or mind-map, that sounds a bit more like the masks Narcissists wear.

To protect this defence, mind puts in place a belief that it is who we actually are, and a forgetting that it is a mere construction. At the same time it keeps the construction under review as we go through life and evolve, and will reduce the defense if it can because it takes energy to maintain it. Mind does not waste energy if i can avoid it.

Sometimes the threat to the organism is so great that the construction collapses. People like Laing believed that the best response to this collapse was to remove the person from the threat and support them untli a new ego was constructed by mind. See "Two accounts of a jouney through madness" by Mary Barnes and Joseph Burke.

Watching a Narcissist in action and wondering what it is that one is dealing with here, it sometimes looks as if Narcissism is also a multiple personality disorder, because the character/personality masks that are put on can differ so greatly from situation to situation, depending on whom they are talking to.
And of course those constructions are always “under review”, as in: what works, what doesn’t in order to maintain the masked control in situations.

Those masks become the power-game.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sentient

To my “Aristotelian thinking” or mind-map, that sounds a bit more like the masks Narcissists wear.

There is certain irony in rationalising madness, but basically it's about the power the 'knowers' have over 'the known' (who are disqualified from knowing by their irrationality).

We'd like to transfer the balance and let the schizophrenic be the expert on schizophrenia, and leave the experts in distress of their redundancy due to the irrational beliefs we'll diagnose as symptoms of 'Psychiatry'.

Watching a Narcissist in action and wondering what it is that one is dealing with here, it sometimes looks as if Narcissism is also a multiple personality disorder, because the character/personality masks that are put on can differ so greatly from situation to situation, depending on whom they are talking to.
But of course those constructions are always “under review”, as in what works, what doesn’t in order to maintain the masked control in the situation.

[Shivani Devi]

I have my own thoughts about mental illness.

Fifty or so/more years ago, I would have been probably 'labeled' as insane and institutionalised...now I'm just 'on the spectrum' like quite a few of us are!

Thank you, Mr Hans Asperger.

The whole definition of 'insanity' has changed from 'that which is socially unacceptable' to 'that which will cause direct physical harm to self or other'.

There are schizophrenics who 'hear voices' and there are channelers and mediums who experience likewise, and who are not, by definition, 'schizophrenic'.

I also know that there are some vindictive etheral entities out there (I've talked to them via ITC technology) who will basically say anything to 'get a rise' because it amuses them...and sensitive individuals can hear such with their naked ears...I can also now, after my practical experiments in the field, but I've learned how to tune them all out...they're full of s*** anyway and they've learned that I care not if they tell me to 'kill myself' and the like so they don't bother me much anymore and I bother them neither.

However, to the sensitive individual who does NOT know about this, they'll believe it is only 'their mind' and they are 'going crazy' and doctors will agree, giving them the label of 'Schizophrenic'.

For the record, I'm also a qualified psychologist (Dip Psych 2001) and I'm into ITC, EVP and paranormal phenomenon and communication as well.

I wear many hats, my friends.

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Gem

There is certain irony in rationalising madness, but basically it's about the power the 'knowers' have over 'the known' (who are disqualified from knowing by their irrationality).

We'd like to transfer the balance and let the schizophrenic be the expert on schizophrenia, and leave the experts in distress of their redundancy due to the irrational beliefs we'll diagnose as symptoms of 'Psychiatry'.

Sometimes Gem I really do not understand your posts at all or your points are so subtle and nuanced they go way over my head.

"There is certain irony in rationalising madness,"

I think that if you have a friend or a family member who has got the “condition”, there is no irony involved, only the intent to understand what is going on.

"but basically it's about the power the 'knowers' have over 'the known'"
The power???
Narcissism is a patterned display and once you do learn about the patterns then you are able to more readily recognize it/them.

"(who are disqualified from knowing by their irrationality)".
Well, Narcissists do not seem to have an independent-free-will to stop that mask-play pattern, because it is often buried so deeply in the early childhood trauma.

To understand the situation allows one not to judge the Narcissist, because they simply cannot help themselves and this also allows forgiveness.

"We'd like to transfer the balance and let the schizophrenic be the expert on schizophrenia, and leave the experts in distress of their redundancy due to the irrational beliefs we'll diagnose as symptoms of 'Psychiatry'."

Haven’t you ever had friends, who has a brother or sister with schizophrenia, and how that situation traumatized the whole family, created fears about subconscious etc. etc.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Quite the histrionics, Iam(x).

This is a discussion board and in the non-duality forum, it is more than legitimate to discuss ideas and traditions, schools and teachings. The fact that you don't like what you hear, is not the same as being persecuted or smeared, killed or jailed.

Also, to make it clear, when someone criticizes or challenges or points out potential flaws or errors in a certain path or school, this is not defamatory or wrong - even if you like to see it that way. For example, if I say that I'm not a huge fan of cults, and I believe that some of their teachings are incorrect or misleading or even harmful, it's actually OK.

For example, say a group believed in the FuddleDuddyPooMeister who lives in the Grand Canyon and believe they are United in Spirit with the FDPM every day. Well, I might question that. I might ask questions, point out some issues.

i.e. not every criticism or judgement or exercising of discernment is persecution.

I believe personally it's a misguided intellectual argument that tries to head off criticism, or maybe this is the way you make sense of it all. But perhaps similar to the #fakenews phenomenon we see today, well - i.e. not every piece of news is fake just because the recipient or reader doesn't agree with, or like it.

Look, I know you're upset and angry and this is a belief system you hold dearly, therefore you're very touched by all this. But look man, just keep it real and at the end of the day, just find a way to be happy - that's a long way to the spiritual road ahead.

BT

What nonsense. It is you and your precious tradition that are upset, affronted, and offended by NA. Your posts have nothing to do with a genuine appraisal of NA. If they did they would not attempt to patronise and smear those who prefer it.

If you really want to make a genuine comparison you will have to end your smears. It may help you to do that if you examine and reflect upon what it is in your conditioning that makes you resort to smears. They are the tactics used by totalitarians.

As history shows, you rise and persecute those who dare to think differently, but are always defeated in the end. after great sacrifice by those who will not bow to your authoritarianism.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

There is nothing beyond my 'conditioning' which realises there is no 'my truth' or 'your truth'.

However, I shall indulge in your speculation (because it is not speculation for me).

Being punished for showing exploratory, independent thought, usually leads one to internalise their realisations, instead of externalising it for 'punishment'.

We see that if others have a problem with how we think, what we believe in and punish us for it, there must be some degree of 'truth' within it, or else we'd just be ignored, told we don't know anything and left to stew in our own 'ignorance'...and as a victim of trauma FOR being an exploratory, independent thinker, I know this all too well, my friend.

Yes totalitarians invariably believe they have the truth and it is unfortunately a characteristic of those who believe they have discovered the truth, to seek to impose it on others with disaterous consequences for all concerned.

Resisting them at an early stage may prevent them becoming to powerful.

It starts with smearing dissidents You'll be burning Tony Parsons books in the streets next.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sentient

Sometimes Gem I really do not understand your posts at all or your points are so subtle and nuanced they go way over my head.

"There is certain irony in rationalising madness,"


I think that if you have a friend or a family member who has got the “condition”, there is no irony involved, only the intent to understand what is going on.

"but basically it's about the power the 'knowers' have over 'the known'"
The power???
Narcissism is a patterned display and once you do learn about the patterns then you are able to more readily recognize it/them.

"(who are disqualified from knowing by their irrationality)".
Well, Narcissists do not seem to have an independent-free-will to stop that mask-play pattern, because it is often buried so deeply in the early childhood trauma.

To understand the situation allows one not to judge the Narcissist, because they simply cannot help themselves and this also allows forgiveness.

"We'd like to transfer the balance and let the schizophrenic be the expert on schizophrenia, and leave the experts in distress of their redundancy due to the irrational beliefs we'll diagnose as symptoms of 'Psychiatry'."

Haven’t you ever had friends, who has a brother or sister with schizophrenia, and how that situation traumatized the whole family, created fears about subconscious etc. etc.

Oh yes, I have a friend who is a diagnosed schizophrenic, it it did distress his family as well. The professionals forcefully medicated him for years on end under a compulsory treatment order, which ultimately only produced more symptoms, which they call 'side effects'. No one during that 15 year period had any interest in understanding what was going on - just turn up and get the shot, nothing more. The 'side effects' include uncontrollable shaking of the legs, hormonal imbalance leading to fat gain, deadness of the brain, and permanant 'physiological changes' that amount to brain damage.

Luckily the panel at the tribunal he pleased his case to, consisting of a leading psychiatrist, a legal expert in mental health law, and another psychiatric specialist, heard the harm that been done by many years of high doses of powerful drugs, and they knew such doses would render a person disfunctional, and in weighing the harms against benefits lifted the compulsory treatment order, so the treating psychiatrists lost their power over my friend, and he re-gained his self determination.

The new psychiatrist my friend freely decided to see suggested an immediate dose reduction of 25%, and further reductions as the condition was monitored, and now, at 50% dose, my friend is no longer receiving monthly overdoses that caused his inability to function.

I havn't see him for a while now, as I have no reason to go to that part of town anymore, but he was doing far better last time I saw him, and I think it was mainly because he regained his self determination and powerful professionals can no longer force him into treatment under the threat of the law.

Look at the operations of power and you see what's going on, as the experts just make up nonsense and vote it into the DSM. There is no evidence base, no scientific rigour - just a small panel of experts who vote on what will be included and excluded in the Diagnostic Manual.

[sentient]

^
Thanks Gem.
Now I know "where you are coming from".

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Yes totalitarians invariably believe they have the truth and it is unfortunately a characteristic of those who believe they have discovered the truth, to seek to impose it on others with disastrous consequences for all concerned.

Perhaps Iamit is simply projecting his own condition onto all those who disagree with him.

Peace.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by iamthat

Perhaps Iamit is simply projecting his own condition onto all those who disagree with him.

Peace.

You need to re read the relevant posts.