Kundalini & Chakras

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

So much theory!

Here is a portrayal about the actual state of being (copied from the poetry section)

In silent celebration we watch
grid from root to jugular notch
alive as it does tighten & enliven
as ecstasy within does heighten
conjoined with the head region
...

The writings from Abhinavagupta are most definitely not theory and are from a realized master.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

The writings from Abhinavagupta are most definitely not theory and are from a realized master.

How can one write, no matter whom writes, other things than theory? A book is not alive.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Legrand

How can one write, no matter whom writes, other things than theory? A book is not alive.

Can you write about walking on a beach?

Is it just theory when you are writing about it as you are doing it?

Of course not.

For those who have never experienced snow it is a theory but to those with n Alaska it is a lived experience.

Abhinavagupta Was/is a true realized being. He was sharing his realization with others on paper is all.

As far as a book being alive. For those that can feel the book has a powerful transmission associated with it. The Shiva Sutras is another on that is powerful.

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

@ jonesboy ...

Yes ... I find Abhinava Guptas translations intriguing as well as informative as also other texts like the Ashtavakra Gita for example as well as current books of Gary Reynard, Baird Spalding, several Buddhist works ... Lankavatara Sutra (which I got to know of from you only), Kashmir Shaivism works of Lakshmanajoo for instance and so on.

However, all of these serve the purpose of acting as signposts validating our own direct experience. Which means that we select & interpret as of our convenience to feel equanimous.

In my limited exposure what I have seen is that the manner of unfoldment varies from person to person at all levels be it the kundalini, void, manifestation etc. What I would in fact recommend strongly is that we rest even memory drawn imagery of the previous experiences we ourselves have had since otherwise we tend to anticipate outcomes of our next meditation, thereby limiting them.

It is the ‘letting go of our mind’ that poses to be the challenge since if we feel that thoughts are rested, they yet surface invisibly in a subtle form in all experiences. This is why we feel interconnectedness and not oneness in what we call the oneness experience. There is me and He. This falls short ... sometime back I started a thread called ‘the oneness enigma’ with profound inputs from Shivani Devi.

There is a whole section here on affirmations! Well ...

It is only (as of what I have experienced) in time & space dissolved explosive rapturous bliss where mind body vaporises that true Oneness is. Bliss is ... nothing else is. Now, if we write about this, which I did feebly attempt, it is at best a faint beacon of hope for others or at worst a distortion of the actual truth. Who’s to say?

Rupert Spira puts it across very eloquently when he says that ‘I Am an open secret’ or words to that effect, meaning that even if we shout it from the rooftops, the revelation is for each of us alone, on a one to one basis.

***

[Priestess of Mahakala]

I will try without theory, but I do not promise that I will succeed.....
theory is needed.... like a vision of nous.....
who knows and creates the world through his eyes....
(eyes illuminate and create the world....)

Well....there is natha school in Russia....they have french students......
But on their website it says that parabind is ishwara tattva....and paranada is Sadasiva tattva....inside parabind is sunya and etc....
then there is a division into three bindu, etc ....
Ok... I did not agree...... on this topic....
Well in tamil Siva tattva is nada and sakti tattva is bindu....At first, order is different....
but further.... written that it is only apara bindu and apara nada....

commentary on the book Tirumantiram:

The Supreme One, Siva/Sakti, the Transcendent/Immanent One, encompasses all - He is both absolute and relative reality. Siva as Parasivam is imrersonal, Absolute, the static aspect that transcends both subtle and material existence.
Sakti ubiquitously energizes the sphere of pure form or suddha maya; the intermediate sphere of impure form or asuddha maya; and the lowest sphere of physical matter or prakriti maya. The One Sakti is all three - the suddha, asuddha and prakriti mayas.

Thus the act of manifest creation is a series of graded devolution of pure spirit - first the primal principles of existence: Siva, Sakti, Nada (apara) and Bindu (apara); and then the five Gods from Sadasiva to Brahma to perform the five acts. It is the total work on nine agencies - of whom the first Four are in suddha maya realms, and the other Five are in the asuddha maya sphere.

The latter five categories then acting on prakriti maya produce the phenomenal worlds, beginning with the five elements, space to earth -Sadasiva leading in this process.
......
This evolution is effected through Siva purposeful imposing of veils - anava (individualizing ignorance), maya (subtle and material form), and karma - over the awareness of the soul).

To recapitulate, Tirumular postulates four stages in the creation process:
1) In the transcendental sphere where Paraparam uniting with Paraparai, evolve paranadam and parabindu, who in turn devolute Parasivam and Parai. This takes place beyond the sphere of pure Spirit, and these six categories may be known as transcendental categories. They are not directly involved in the act of creation.

(This stage is not referred to in some of the later works on Saiva Siddhanta Philosophy - for instance/ the Sivajnana Siddhiar. They present the creative process as starting with the nine evolutes of pure spirit who actually perform the process of creation)

2) from paranadam and parabindu of the transcendental sphere, Siva, Sakti, aparanadam and apara bindu evolve. Out of these four categories, Sakti manifests as the primal jnana, kriya and iccha saktis; and apara bindu uniting with iccha sakti evolves suddha maya. Thus in the sphere of suddha maya we have four primal categories, Siva, Sakti, aparanadam and aparabindu.

3) Next, is the creation in the sphere of assudha maya or imrupe spirit. Here aparanadam interacting on aparabindu evolves the Five Gods for the five acts of: bestowal of revelatory grace bestowal of veiling grace, dissolution, preservation and creation.

Assuddha maya sakti is so called, because She embodies the principle of egoity or anava. She is therefore known an Anava Sakti also. As these five Gods or aspects manifested from Anava Sakti, they operate within the realms of anava malam.

Shorter....stage number 1 @paranadam and parabindu@ going beyond 36 tattvas.....(this is not tattva)....
Stage number 2 is inside tattva (creation), so Siva-tattva (aparanada) and Sakti tattva (aparabindu)....manifest....
as far as I understand
.........
But in Abhinavagupta "para-trisika-vivarana" everything is tied to siva tattva in mantrika....vowels from a to ah....a, a+ (keyboard problems), i, i+......eth....o, au.....am or om (siva-bindu, ok)....ah visarga.....
vowels from a to ah - internal manifestation of annutara inside siva tattva....
16 vowels - is Siva tattva alone....
sakti - ka, sadasiva -kha, isvara - ga......
in malini the order is different...there is more chaos.....

does not matter.....
generally sadasiva (nada) and isvara (bindu) .....they can't be paranada/parabindu.....
alien theory....generally everyone is collective One Mind Buddha (ekacitta)....
although kashmir shaivism considers yogachara, garbhi and shunyavada....as pralayakala (no kalaaa...akala In this sense) or sunya-pramata.....

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

@ jonesboy ...

Yes ... I find Abhinava Guptas translations intriguing as well as informative as also other texts like the Ashtavakra Gita for example as well as current books of Gary Reynard, Baird Spalding, several Buddhist works ... Lankavatara Sutra (which I got to know of from you only), Kashmir Shaivism works of Lakshmanajoo for instance and so on.

However, all of these serve the purpose of acting as signposts validating our own direct experience. Which means that we select & interpret as of our convenience to feel equanimous.

I study a lot of different traditions as well.

I would say picking and choosing at our convenience is a big danger.

I would agree that they can be signposts and I have said that many times to people.

In my limited exposure what I have seen is that the manner of unfoldment varies from person to person at all levels be it the kundalini, void, manifestation etc. What I would in fact recommend strongly is that we rest even memory drawn imagery of the previous experiences we ourselves have had since otherwise we tend to anticipate outcomes of our next meditation, thereby limiting them.

I would agree that how one experiences a thing is different from one person to another. We can each go to the ocean but how we experience it will be different. Yet the ocean is the ocean.

I would also agree that the wanting, the desire for an experience, a state of being is an obstruction, it is that wanting that holds one back.

It is the ‘letting go of our mind’ that poses to be the challenge since if we feel that thoughts are rested, they yet surface invisibly in a subtle form in all experiences. This is why we feel interconnectedness and not oneness in what we call the oneness experience. There is me and He. This falls short ... sometime back I started a thread called ‘the oneness enigma’ with profound inputs from Shivani Devi.

Silence for one can be another's busy mind. There is always deeper. Oneness is possible, feeling everyone within you, as you is possible. Directly touching another's being and having them experience bliss, silence, energy or love is all possible.

Keep digging..

There is a whole section here on affirmations! Well ...

It is only (as of what I have experienced) in time & space dissolved explosive rapturous bliss where mind body vaporises that true Oneness is. Bliss is ... nothing else is. Now, if we write about this, which I did feebly attempt, it is at best a faint beacon of hope for others or at worst a distortion of the actual truth. Who’s to say?

A good gauge on oneness.. If it is only within your mind then it is still local mind. If it can be directly shared with another.. well....

Rupert Spira puts it across very eloquently when he says that ‘I Am an open secret’ or words to that effect, meaning that even if we shout it from the rooftops, the revelation is for each of us alone, on a one to one basis.

I use to be a fan of his..

Each of us has to realize it ourselves but that doesn't mean another can't help us with the signposts or speed up the process for us. In the end, I agree on you can truly let stuff go and progress along the path..

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Priestess of Mahakala

I will try without theory, but I do not promise that I will succeed.....
theory is needed.... like a vision of nous.....
who knows and creates the world through his eyes....
(eyes illuminate and create the world....)...

A Buddha is different than Siva in Hinduism. A Buddha is one that has seen beyond Universal Mind/Siva and realized emptiness of Universal Mind.

Sunyata is not the same as emptiness..

[Priestess of Mahakala]

in short aum is inside siva tattva in Kasmir....
as i understood....

bought a tamil book Tirumantiram in Exotic India for the holiday ...
I'm reading.... is complicated....

distinguish jiva-turiya, para-turiya, siva-turiya....three turiyas...

tables are given in two different cases: realisation and jivas (not)

Jiva-turiya -self realisation
1) Turiya
2) Turiya jagrat
3) Turiya svapna
4) Turiya susupti
5) Turiyatita

Para-turiya -Jiva becomes Para
6) Para Turiya
7) Para Turiya jagrat
8) Para Turiya svapna
9) Para Turiya sushupti
10) Para Turiyatita

Siva Turiya - Jiva becomes Parasiva
11) Siva turiya

2285 Further Beyond Para Siva State is Paramam (Brahmam),
Paramparam and Para Maha Sivam
Beyond Para Siva is Paramam (Brahmam);
Beyond Paramam is Paramparam (Para Brahmam);
Thus are states ascending;
From Para Siva Jagra, to Para Siva Svapna, and to Para Siva Sushupti
The Jiva that has Para Siva become reaches
The Finite Truth that is Para Nandi.

second table is given for consciousness of jivas.

Jiva or Jagrat Turiya
1) Jagrat
2) Svapna
3) Sushupti
4) Turiya

Para turiya
5) Jiva turiya jagrat
6) Jiva turiya svapna
7) jiva turiya sushupti
8) jiva turiya turiya

Siva turiya
9) Para turiya jagrat
10 Para turiya svapna
11) Para turiya sushupti
12) Para turiya turiya

Stages 4 and 5 merge into one state.. Similarly states 8 and 9 merge into one state. Thus they become ten avastas - the turiya of one state being the jagrat of the next.

reminded me Linga (Siva) and Anga (jiva) in virasaiva in text Sri Siddhanta Shikhamani....they are duplicated
for consciousness of jiva (anga) and siva (realisation)

Ok...aum in Tirumantiram is in turiyatita state for sure....verse 2158 Turiyatita experience AUM...But is it jiva-turiyatita or para turiyatita?
Para turiya described in verses 2292 Experiences in Para turiya:

1) Jiva turiya - Panchakshara
Para turiya avastha
1) Para turiya jagrat - Fifty-One-Letter
2) Para turiya svapna - nada
3) Para turiya sushupti - bodha
4) Para turiya turiya - Paramam (Brahman)
(Siva turiya beginning of jagrat)

difficult book.....
nevertheless, as far as I understand, Siva tattva is aparanada and Sakti tattva is aparabindu, they are only "tattva".... 1 and 2...
mysticism of complete destruction means the destruction of the "tattvas" (36)....but Siva/Sakti certainly not destroyable....they are not tattvas, but bindu is the material form (kundalini-bindu).... it`s a subject to transformation....
In virasaiva inside bindu is mala.....and maya....
anavamala acts through bindu in virasaiva....and chakras form are generally created from mayamala....
when you call kundalini out, mala is right here.... karmic nodes (rudra granthi, vishnu granthi and brahma granthi) created from the same "material"....
they can change locations....in some texts (rudra granthi and brahma granthi swap places).... the chakras system is also not fatal....but general laws exist.... although someone writes that they are made from shunya...
and shakti flows through them.....
tried to find out the location of the chakras inside my cat

[Unseeking Seeker]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Chakras are local mind maps to issues and fears.

You will notice some traditions have 6, others 7 or 12. Some traditions don't have any chakras at all.

I have a friend who did a great post on the tattvas which might be a little much for this thread if you are interested.. Always willing to copy and paste it in the Hindu section.

***

Perhaps ... yet difficult to accept, what you say about variations in chakras. It’s like saying human anatomy is different depending upon tradition.

What I do accept is that there are many more chakras or energy centres than commonly believed. We gradually become cognisant of them over time.

Please do post the tattva bit ...

***

[Priestess of Mahakala]

A Buddha is different than Siva in Hinduism. A Buddha is one that has seen beyond Universal Mind/Siva and realized emptiness of Universal Mind

listened to lectures of Bhikkhu Bodhi (theravada) on youtube....
in Russia finally started to translate pali canon by large.....otherwise the market was flooded with mahayana and tibet....

Kashmir Shaivism most close with chittamantra, garbha.... although the differences are huge....
But in theravada consciousness (cit) is only an obstacle to enter nibbana.....
consciousness must be extinguished.
absolute reality called "Dhamma".... and this is not cit or so.... as i understood....
In Thevarada self don't exist, dhamma are real..
In yogachara "other way round" only cit-vijnana exist, but dhamma not real....
And in sunyavada no dharma.... no self (cit) is real...

You will notice some traditions have 6, others 7 or 12. Some traditions don't have any chakras at all.

Yeah, I definitely have about 20 chakras or more....but i'm not telling anyone.....that I am an alien....love movies about space and UFOS....

I have a friend who did a great post on the tattvas which might be a little much for this thread if you are interested.. Always willing to copy and paste it in the Hindu section.

Ok....
Hm.....I'm generally stuck in this section of forum....
But I think the topic of kundalini....even includes alien invasions.....