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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #21  
Old 12-09-2020, 08:25 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Here I was thinking it was flawed to conflate logic with justification, but then I was surprised how popular that conflation is!
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  #22  
Old 12-09-2020, 01:39 PM
Lorelyen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FallingLeaves
what you've said is correct, it does boil down to 'consensus reality'. But when it isn't about consensus of facts but rather consensus of the interpretation of relationships between things, consensus reality strays from 'truth' quite a bit IMO.

Dead on. When phenomena or the relationship between phenomena can't reliably be measured/calculated/observed then there's no point in applying logic in its strict sense.
.
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  #23  
Old 12-09-2020, 01:56 PM
SpiritualFreedom SpiritualFreedom is offline
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There is an interesting documentary on Netflix about the worst jails in the world

What is fascinating to me, , is that 100% of those criminals who commited horrible acts - Had a victim mentality and victim logic to justify their negative acts to themselves

On a daily basis, I can guarantee you that they are going to talk to themselves on a very logical way thinking that they are "right", and is the whole society who has "done wrong to them"

I don't trust logic from myself, neither of anyone. Because is noise, and misleading.


What I do trust is the SOURCE INTENTION

The Source Intention, which logic derives from it: is love based or fear based?

Therefore logic, is just a NEUTRAL vehicle of the intellect. In order to find the best action / reasons of that source intention


This is how it goes

(1) Source Intention: Love/Fear Based => (2) Logical reasons to do it, and why is right to do it => (3) Final action: Love/Fear Based

(4) Exponential Feedback loop 1-2-3

The core problem as you is the source intention. Is about love or about fear.

Because even if is about fear, you will find the best convincing logic in the world to do it, that's how it works.

That's how people commit suicide, rape, killing, stealing. All starts from the source of intention, and then logic will find out the best reasons in the world about why is right to do it, and why you need to do it.

In it's polar opposite how people share, help, empower, give, understand, forgive to other people. Regardless of going against their own self-benefit, giving away time, money and solutions for no personal gain at all - Meanwhile everyone can give you all the reasons in the world about how that person is "going to take advantage of you - if you're too generous to them" - I get that lot

"Don't give away your secrets" "she is going to use you for money" "all they care is your money"

and on, and on, and on

Fear based intention.


Well, I'm not like that

I preferer to be on the place of being the one who gives first all the time.

Regardless of wheter or not, they "are going to take advantage of me"

Is all aboute Love Intention.


An advanced consciousness is all about love intention to everything & everyone, because it knows, that the universe will give back that love to them sooner or later in the end.

That's how this universe works.

It gives back, what you put as your intention, and it has a feedback loop.


In terms of money there are lots of different models, where you can make money indefinetely like an endless river by providing value to the world.

But then is all about giving : friends, family, relationships, other businesses and charity.


The purpose of making money, is finally to give it to other people for their needs & desires & making them happy, so you're very happy about it - That's love based

Is not about who has the best house, best cars, best vacations like a competition, and trying to be the #1 dominating/controling - That's fear based


Since you can make money indfinetely all the time like a river... Why are you so fearful about this idea to give it away?

If you can't make money indefintely like that, is because your business system or business model needs a refinement. Is that simple
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  #24  
Old 12-09-2020, 03:03 PM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
I think you're speaking of logic in the colloquial sense. As a mathematical technique it's perfectly reliable. The danger is people getting the premises wrong or simply false - and you'll find loads and loads of that in the Spiritual snake oil market on the web.

Sometimes it's quite appalling! Someone comes on stating a fake fact then treating that as an fact in a logical equation. The naive often fall for it as we see here then suffer disappointment when they suss it out later.

You can prove the moon is made of cheese with logic....but only with false premises!
.
Well now, sometimes we just need a premise to our premise to strengthen it to make up for it's obvious shortcomings and falsyness. One might preface the premise by saying "As everyone knows, X" or perhaps "Now that it has been shown that, Y", or perhaps even, "Only fools can't see the Emperor's fine and beautiful clothing."

Don't you know what everyone else already knows?
Oh, well, it appears it has been shown, I must have missed it.
Of course I can see the Emperor's clothes, I am not a fool!

Of course often it is as easy as saying "this is what we think."
Don't you want to be one of us?

And so it goes as history repeats again and again as naked Emperor after naked Emperor ascends and falls.
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  #25  
Old 12-09-2020, 03:28 PM
lemex lemex is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,078
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Here I was thinking it was flawed to conflate logic with justification, but then I was surprised how popular that conflation is!
Of course it is flawed, oh you didn't mean that : ). Justification is an untruth, something that should not be done. If a person does not justify they will go mad, way too many conflicts. Justification is merely a protection mechanism.
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  #26  
Old 12-09-2020, 03:37 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: अनुगृहितोऽस्म
Posts: 16,048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritualFreedom
There is an interesting documentary on Netflix about the worst jails in the world

What is fascinating to me, , is that 100% of those criminals who commited horrible acts - Had a victim mentality and victim logic to justify their negative acts to themselves

On a daily basis, I can guarantee you that they are going to talk to themselves on a very logical way thinking that they are "right", and is the whole society who has "done wrong to them"

I don't trust logic from myself, neither of anyone. Because is noise, and misleading.


What I do trust is the SOURCE INTENTION

The Source Intention, which logic derives from it: is love based or fear based?

Therefore logic, is just a NEUTRAL vehicle of the intellect. In order to find the best action / reasons of that source intention


This is how it goes

(1) Source Intention: Love/Fear Based => (2) Logical reasons to do it, and why is right to do it => (3) Final action: Love/Fear Based

(4) Exponential Feedback loop 1-2-3

The core problem as you is the source intention. Is about love or about fear.

Because even if is about fear, you will find the best convincing logic in the world to do it, that's how it works.

That's how people commit suicide, rape, killing, stealing. All starts from the source of intention, and then logic will find out the best reasons in the world about why is right to do it, and why you need to do it.

In it's polar opposite how people share, help, empower, give, understand, forgive to other people. Regardless of going against their own self-benefit, giving away time, money and solutions for no personal gain at all - Meanwhile everyone can give you all the reasons in the world about how that person is "going to take advantage of you - if you're too generous to them" - I get that lot

"Don't give away your secrets" "she is going to use you for money" "all they care is your money"

and on, and on, and on

Fear based intention.


Well, I'm not like that

I preferer to be on the place of being the one who gives first all the time.

Regardless of wheter or not, they "are going to take advantage of me"

Is all aboute Love Intention.


An advanced consciousness is all about love intention to everything & everyone, because it knows, that the universe will give back that love to them sooner or later in the end.

That's how this universe works.

It gives back, what you put as your intention, and it has a feedback loop.


In terms of money there are lots of different models, where you can make money indefinetely like an endless river by providing value to the world.

But then is all about giving : friends, family, relationships, other businesses and charity.


The purpose of making money, is finally to give it to other people for their needs & desires & making them happy, so you're very happy about it - That's love based

Is not about who has the best house, best cars, best vacations like a competition, and trying to be the #1 dominating/controling - That's fear based


Since you can make money indfinetely all the time like a river... Why are you so fearful about this idea to give it away?

If you can't make money indefintely like that, is because your business system or business model needs a refinement. Is that simple
Nice points.

Your views on money were very revealing.
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  #27  
Old 12-09-2020, 04:00 PM
lemex lemex is offline
Master
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,078
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritualFreedom
The Source Intention, which logic derives from it: is love based or fear based?

Therefore logic, is just a NEUTRAL vehicle of the intellect. In order to find the best action / reasons of that source intention

This is how it goes

(1) Source Intention: Love/Fear Based => (2) Logical reasons to do it, and why is right to do it => (3) Final action: Love/Fear Based

(4) Exponential Feedback loop 1-2-3

The core problem as you is the source intention. Is about love or about fear.

Because even if is about fear, you will find the best convincing logic in the world to do it, that's how it works.
I've read your posts many times over and have thoroughly enjoyed them and the simplicity and understandably of them. Thank you for the post. Personally I find them enlightened.
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  #28  
Old 12-09-2020, 04:24 PM
Lorelyen
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
Well now, sometimes we just need a premise to our premise to strengthen it to make up for it's obvious shortcomings and falsyness. One might preface the premise by saying "As everyone knows, X" or perhaps "Now that it has been shown that, Y", or perhaps even, "Only fools can't see the Emperor's fine and beautiful clothing."
That's why I mentioned some of the appalling stuff that passes for "logic" in the web's spiritual marketplace. Almost every article I read trying to seduce people into following their line, buying their books/snake oil, subscribing etc., is riddled with it. A few fake facts presented in an authoritative tone and then put into a logical equation. Even then some of the logic is false, like saying 'all apples are fruit, therefore all fruit are apples'.
I should be sad for the people who fall for it but it doesn't take much thought to see the fallacies.
.
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  #29  
Old 12-09-2020, 04:50 PM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
That's why I mentioned some of the appalling stuff that passes for "logic" in the web's spiritual marketplace. Almost every article I read trying to seduce people into following their line, buying their books/snake oil, subscribing etc., is riddled with it. A few fake facts presented in an authoritative tone and then put into a logical equation. Even then some of the logic is false, like saying 'all apples are fruit, therefore all fruit are apples'.
I should be sad for the people who fall for it but it doesn't take much thought to see the fallacies.
.
Yeah, I got ya. They say the more absurd the lie the more likely it is to be believed. Sometimes I think it is more of a desire to belong, and the lie is just a straw to grasp onto to stay in the fold.
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  #30  
Old 12-09-2020, 06:02 PM
SpiritualFreedom SpiritualFreedom is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
That's why I mentioned some of the appalling stuff that passes for "logic" in the web's spiritual marketplace. Almost every article I read trying to seduce people into following their line, buying their books/snake oil, subscribing etc., is riddled with it. A few fake facts presented in an authoritative tone and then put into a logical equation. Even then some of the logic is false, like saying 'all apples are fruit, therefore all fruit are apples'.
I should be sad for the people who fall for it but it doesn't take much thought to see the fallacies.
.

The solution would be to offer a 100% money back guarantee.

Trustful & good businesses always have that.

So the risk is on the business, not on the client.

Again it applies the same principle: love based or fear based individual is behind the business.

A fear based individual is not going to put any money back guarantee at all, because the fear based individual:
(A) Knows that the offer has no quality, and it doesn't solves the problem for the client.
(B) It has the fear of "being taken advantage from". People buying the product, taking the money back, but keeping it even if it does solve the problem and is useful

A love based individual will
(A) Put a product that does work, is quality, and solves the problem.
(B) It will offer always a 100% money back guarantee without questions to all of the clients. Regardless of the fear from being "taken advantage from". It takes that risk anyway, because it knows that's the right way (love intention)
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