Doing and Happening

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Yes, can be very confusing. A lot like one of dem dare Zen Koans. One can think themselves to exhaustion on it.

But eventually one gives up and turns on the old boob tube, and if lucky, gets a nice respite from their own existence for a bit....but the buttered popcorn does exist and don't try to tell me different.

Philosophy tends to set the mind in motion and the cogs turn round and round .. koans are no different in a way as they get one to try and work the buggers out ..

At a point none of it serves you, but if you hold a philosophy that no-one is here to search or think or sit quietly, nothing really matters at all . There would be no actual difference between koaning oneself to intellectual death or sitting quietly ..

It's all a dream, happening to no-one .. (supposedly) .



x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Repeating that stuff confirms that you dont get it. What you are missing has already been stated, repeating that wont help so lets leave it at that. Be well and good luck

I repeat the same stuff because it makes no sense . I get told often that I don't get what another say's in these regards but I do . It's the reason why it makes no sense .


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Iamit

"What niz refers to is simply more dreams beyond the dreams and there is no comparison for what isn't a dream".

This is not a difficult idea. It is quite clear. There is no comparison because what is being said is that there is nothing but the dream, including that statement:) Difficult for some to get your head around, but there is a space being pointed to if you can. Good luck.

There has to be a comparison . To suggest that the world is full of thin male tall people would mean you have a comparison for that .

To suggest there doesn't need a comparison and maintain the tall skinny male concept would be ridiculous wouldn't it .

You only have a reference for a dream world because you know what a dream is compared to not .

The actual premise of the dream wouldn't exist otherwise . That's how bonkers the premise is .

There is no realisation for the world being the dream world, there is no one realising anything .

Niz is just a dream character that hasn't realised anything .

For you to quote him and resonate with him doesn't mean anything does it .

You said the resonator is illusory .

It's a dream character waving at another dream character and neither are real or hold any truth about reality .

This is why it's ludicrous in one respect for you to have a stance on oneness and non duality for none of what you think of can be true .

Whatever is said about non duality would just be an extension of the illusion wouldn't it .

There is no real substance to anything .


x daz x

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by God-Like

There has to be a comparison . To suggest that the world is full of thin male tall people would mean you have a comparison for that .

To suggest there doesn't need a comparison and maintain the tall skinny male concept would be ridiculous wouldn't it .

You only have a reference for a dream world because you know what a dream is compared to not .

The actual premise of the dream wouldn't exist otherwise . That's how bonkers the premise is .

There is no realisation for the world being the dream world, there is no one realising anything .

Niz is just a dream character that hasn't realised anything .

For you to quote him and resonate with him doesn't mean anything does it .

You said the resonator is illusory .

It's a dream character waving at another dream character and neither are real or hold any truth about reality .

This is why it's ludicrous in one respect for you to have a stance on oneness and non duality for none of what you think of can be true .

Whatever is said about non duality would just be an extension of the illusion wouldn't it .

There is no real substance to anything .


x daz x

You wont see it by us repeating stuff. Best leave it. Good Luck,

Originally Posted by God-Like

Philosophy tends to set the mind in motion and the cogs turn round and round .. koans are no different in a way as they get one to try and work the buggers out ..

At a point none of it serves you, but if you hold a philosophy that no-one is here to search or think or sit quietly, nothing really matters at all . There would be no actual difference between koaning oneself to intellectual death or sitting quietly ..

It's all a dream, happening to no-one .. (supposedly) .



x daz x

To me it is not so much about holding a philosophy that no-one is here or that I don't exist. But more about realizing that any attempt to find or define that 'I' inevitably goes on forever. I can exist, but perhaps never know what I am, only that I am. Nevertheless, the mind wants to know what it is, and what it is not. But perhaps ultimately everything it knows is in fact itself, an infinite variety of expression created from and within itself. That perhaps subject and object are in fact one, and it itself is creating the illusion of separation as it examines itself searching for itself. Perhaps only koaning itself until it becomes exhausted, finding itself everywhere it looks, until it gives up its search to separate out that 'I', is at least one path, to getting to that point where it can sit quietly and contently in the knowledge only that I am, and just be, with itself....and maybe a bowl of hot buttered popcorn.

Originally Posted by Iamit

Still no 'not Oneness' created unless I am missing something, which would not be the first time:)

There is oneness, and what oneness is appearing as, which can be seen as a kind of twoness, which is not to be confused with the Capitol of Tunisia.

But ultimately the point here is more about the inherent duality in the concept of non-duality. Duality vs. non-duality forming a duality to contradict the idea that pure non-duality can be conceptualized as it requires the concept of duality to give it meaning. Which circles back to the parallel of saying the problem with talking or thinking about oneness, is that it needs the concept of not oneness (unoneness?) to give it meaning.

Now this may just be an artifact of the limitations inherent in trying to capture an underlying deeper and more mysterious concept using thoughts and words. Which reminds one of that first verse and how the essential nature of the Tao cannot be spoken of or even thought of and therefor will always remains a mystery to the thinking mind.

Yet the mind seeks to understand the Tao by watching the myriad creatures dancing Shiva's dance. Looking for a sign of what the deeper meaning of the mysterious Tao is in that outer fringe, that world of the discrete and discernible that the mind with its thoughts has access to. Yet perhaps the myriad creatures of Shiva's dance are in fact dancing within our own consciousness. Drawing from information within the depths of that mystery, we create the space and time in which they will perform, we create the forms, and we set the forms to motion, all within our own consciousness.

If so, then we are searching to understand the deeper meaning in the Tao, by looking within ourselves, perhaps because at some level, we know that there is where the understanding lies. The depths and mystery within the Tao is one with the depths and mystery within ourselves. We can seek an understanding through the outer fringes and the myriad dancing forms, and this is good and useful. Yet the intellect is only one way to approach the Tao, to dive deeper into its mysterious depths, requires a direct experience beyond the comprehension of the thinking mind, the experience of life, just being human, is perhaps one vehicle to dive with.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Iamit

You wont see it by us repeating stuff. Best leave it. Good Luck,

There is no-one here to see anything . What is here to see is dreamy and illusory isn't it . There is noTruth to anything . It's all mindful and illusory . You have said yourself that the non-duality is part of the illusion and yet you carry on in the same fashion telling me that there is something to see that is what? The Truth? There is no-one here to realise what you say .

You need to understand your own foundation . You repeating yourself won't make any difference will it .

It's like a dream character trying to wake up everyday . It will never happen because a dream character can never wake up .

You don't explain how there can be a premise of a dream without knowing what isn't a dream .

Nizs quote actually emphasises what I say in such a way where if you are only an illusory dream character then there cannot be transcendence of the dream .

Dream characters cannot transcend anything . Only real life self aware individuals can awaken or transcend, it doesn't seem that you understand this foundation .

This is what some non dualist do, they just say life is a dream and then they can't explain it .

Virtually every non dual conversation I have on forums goes this way, it's made out that it's my fault that I don't understand lol, but no answers come my way .


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by ketzer

There is oneness, and what oneness is appearing as, which can be seen as a kind of twoness, which is not to be confused with the Capitol of Tunisia.

.

One is the many and the many is one .

Peeps who learn and adopt a non duality philosophy think that oneness not twoness refers to a one dimensional linear type of understanding .

This is one of the biggest flaws .

People think that there cannot be individuals because there is only one Self .

It isn't ONE Self it is Self that is all there is .

That includes billions of individual expressions of what you are fundamentally that is all there is .

ONENESS is misunderstood .

For there to be a suggestion that there cannot be TWO is misunderstanding what you are fundamentally .

Peeps think that there cannot be TWO because it implies separation, but there cannot be separation from what you are .

There can be both individuality and sameness just as there are different colours of the rainbow while all colours being the same light source .


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by ketzer

To me it is not so much about holding a philosophy that no-one is here or that I don't exist. But more about realizing that any attempt to find or define that 'I' inevitably goes on forever. I can exist, but perhaps never know what I am, only that I am. Nevertheless, the mind wants to know what it is, and what it is not. But perhaps ultimately everything it knows is in fact itself, an infinite variety of expression created from and within itself. That perhaps subject and object are in fact one, and it itself is creating the illusion of separation as it examines itself searching for itself. Perhaps only koaning itself until it becomes exhausted, finding itself everywhere it looks, until it gives up its search to separate out that 'I', is at least one path, to getting to that point where it can sit quietly and contently in the knowledge only that I am, and just be, with itself....and maybe a bowl of hot buttered popcorn.

I understand what you say, and even Self realisation doesn't actually reveal what you are because as many have discovered what ever is said about it, isn't it .

This is why peeps say what you are is all there is, because it covers every aspect of life and reality and there is no need to define that any further .

I am content with not putting stuff into words in this regard because the realisation itself puts to bed the search and the enquiry of what you are .

Of course, things get a little messy when peeps adopt there is no-one here to begin with that can search, but I keep asking if this line of thought is realised or not and I never get a straight forward answer .

The realisation itself doesn't reveal that what you are of the mind experience isn't real and one is dreaming .

This is just a mindful theory suggested and as we both know, there is no one here dreaming there is only a dream .. and this dream is concluded by no one and this no one doesn't have a comparison for what isn't a dream .

It's border line bonkers ..


x daz x

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by God-Like

There is no-one here to see anything . What is here to see is dreamy and illusory isn't it . There is noTruth to anything . It's all mindful and illusory . You have said yourself that the non-duality is part of the illusion and yet you carry on in the same fashion telling me that there is something to see that is what? The Truth? There is no-one here to realise what you say .

You need to understand your own foundation . You repeating yourself won't make any difference will it .

It's like a dream character trying to wake up everyday . It will never happen because a dream character can never wake up .

You don't explain how there can be a premise of a dream without knowing what isn't a dream .

Nizs quote actually emphasises what I say in such a way where if you are only an illusory dream character then there cannot be transcendence of the dream .

Dream characters cannot transcend anything . Only real life self aware individuals can awaken or transcend, it doesn't seem that you understand this foundation .

This is what some non dualist do, they just say life is a dream and then they can't explain it .

Virtually every non dual conversation I have on forums goes this way, it's made out that it's my fault that I don't understand lol, but no answers come my way .


x daz x

I am not suggesting that not understanding is your fault. This is difficult stuff requiring careful descriptions in writing which has not always been the case. If we could sit down together in friendly conversation, the outcome may well be different. I wish you well.