Doing and Happening

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Was ketzer not conceived and born out of thin air? Ketzer was perhaps created out of something even less material than air. Ketzer did not exist when the organism that holds it was born. It had to be created so that organism could relate itself to the world around it, once it decided it was separate from that world. And so it set about creating a model from its own thoughts, memories, perceptions, interpretations, and experiences. A model of itself it called ketzer because that is what it seemed others were calling it. A model that it could use to compare itself to the world. A model of self to be the doer of what it wanted to see happening, and a model to assess whether it was capable of doing it. Of course having little direct experience of itself, it had to base its model of self on the interactions it had with other beings and things. On how the organism experienced these and how they appeared to experience it. But in the end, Ketzer is an idea conceived in and birthed from the brain of that organism.
But of course to be a self created and self induced illusion, we must have a self to do the dirty work. Ketzer, is not that self, it just feels like that it what it is, for the time being human.
Now if we wanted to go further down the rabbit hole, we could talk about how that still undefined and indirectly experienced self may be creating that organism and the entire environment it is in, both at the level of perception, and the level of physical existence, but that would take more time then I care to go into in this particular post.

This raises the following important questions:

Are we human born with an ego, which is our sense of our mind/body self or not? The answer to that question is a resounding yes.

Are our ego/mind/body sense of self fully and completly pre-conditioned/preprogrammed with fear when we come out of our mother's womb, not including if our mother was abused while we where in her womb? The answer to that question is a resounding no. When we come out of our mother's womb, our ego/mind/body sense of self is not programmed/conditioned with fear, our ego/mind/body sense of self is new, innocent and is free from fear.

Fear separates our conditioned/preprogrammed sense of self/i am away from our heart feeling of SELF/I AM. This is why our conditioned/preprogrammed sense of self/i am is the one and the same as our heart feeling of SELF/I AM

Our ego/mind/body sense of self is shaped, programmed/conditioned with fear by the experiences and the relationships we have with our environment/surroundings.

Contradictory and/or untrue and misunderstood spiritual and religious premises, notions, concepts, dogma and etc also conditions/programs our ego/mind/body sense of self.

Our father's sperm and our mother's egg is what creates our physical bodies, including our heart and brain where our ego/mind/body sense of self and SELF exists.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Iamit

The capacity of Oneness to manifest is limitless so can also constrict to appear as Mike S80 to believe in limits that make sense, that are true, or real:) Its a very advantageous position. Oneness is presenting an invitation, by and to itself as Mike S80, to see that there are no limits, and invites itself as Mike S80 to trancend, in which case the problem with Nonduality disappears.

Or Onenss may continue to play this game with itself whilst looking like MikeS80. It seems to be enjoying it, as no doubt we all are, so may long continue:)

Yes, oneness created the process of conception and of birth that created MikeS80. MikeS80 did not just appear or *poof* out of nowhere. Even Jesus Christ did not appear or *poof* out of nowhere. Oneness does not create or *poof* human babies out of nowhere, there has to be sperm and an egg involved in the process.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Was ketzer not conceived and born out of thin air? Ketzer was perhaps created out of something even less material than air. Ketzer did not exist when the organism that holds it was born. It had to be created so that organism could relate itself to the world around it, once it decided it was separate from that world. And so it set about creating a model from its own thoughts, memories, perceptions, interpretations, and experiences. A model of itself it called ketzer because that is what it seemed others were calling it. A model that it could use to compare itself to the world. A model of self to be the doer of what it wanted to see happening, and a model to assess whether it was capable of doing it. Of course having little direct experience of itself, it had to base its model of self on the interactions it had with other beings and things. On how the organism experienced these and how they appeared to experience it. But in the end, Ketzer is an idea conceived in and birthed from the brain of that organism.
But of course to be a self created and self induced illusion, we must have a self to do the dirty work. Ketzer, is not that self, it just feels like that it what it is, for the time being human.
Now if we wanted to go further down the rabbit hole, we could talk about how that still undefined and indirectly experienced self may be creating that organism and the entire environment it is in, both at the level of perception, and the level of physical existence, but that would take more time then I care to go into in this particular post.

Oneness is not bound by such rules. Once this is seen the problem with Nonduality disappears. Science appears to identify mechanisms that enable the manifestations. From a nondual perspective those mechanisms are also Oneness manifest, doing everything by and to itself. In Nonduality there is nothing else available to do or manifest.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Yes, oneness created the process of conception and of birth that created MikeS80. MikeS80 did not just appear or *poof* out of nowhere. Even Jesus Christ did not appear or *poof* out of nowhere. Oneness does not create or *poof* human babies out of nowhere, there has to be sperm and an egg involved in the process.

But before all that there had to be a universe, which according to modern cosmology, came from a big bang, from a singularity, *poof* came the universe out of nowhere and nowhen and nothing, sperm, egg, and MikeS80 followed soon (in relative terms looking ahead) after.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by ketzer

But before all that there had to be a universe, which according to modern cosmology, came from a big bang, from a singularity, *poof* came the universe out of nowhere and nowhen and nothing, sperm, egg, and MikeS80 followed soon (in relative terms looking ahead) after.

That is only true if the universe/singularity/the eternal right here and right now was not here before the big bang and this is the only "unknown"/"mystery". I do not think any science will be able to prove the following with physical proof/evidence because the answer is available to us when we use pure logic and common sense:

The singularity (or God or brahman or truth, if you wish) is the eternal right here and right now, is beyond time and space, which means the self that is in the physical universe and which is conscious of this eternal right here and right now is also beyond time and space.

We are conceived by our male and female parents in the eternal right here and now, then we are born into the eternal right here and now.

Edit: The eternal right here and now triggers our fears, mental and emotional conditioning/programming because our fears, mental and emotional conditioning/programming contradicts the truth/the eternal right here and right now, and this is what karma and illusions/dreams truly are. Any other concept of karma and illusions/dreams and etc are false and are based on fear-the fear that the truth/eternal right here and now triggers inside of us, to tell us something is not truth.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Yes, oneness created the process of conception and of birth that created MikeS80. MikeS80 did not just appear or *poof* out of nowhere. Even Jesus Christ did not appear or *poof* out of nowhere. Oneness does not create or *poof* human babies out of nowhere, there has to be sperm and an egg involved in the process.

Oneness IS Mike S80. There is nothing else to manifest as such, and all else.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Oneness IS Mike S80. There is nothing else to manifest as such, and all else.

The purpose of oneness existing as MikeS80, is for Oneness and MikeS80 to be a part of life/existence/the eternal right here and right now or truth, not to ignore, or escape life/existence/the eternal right and right now/truth. Ignoring or escaping life/existence/the eternal right and right now/truth negates and contradicts the purpose of life/existence/the eternal right and right now/truth.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

This raises the following important questions:

Are we human born with an ego, which is our sense of our mind/body self or not? The answer to that question is a resounding yes.

Are our ego/mind/body sense of self fully and completly pre-conditioned/preprogrammed with fear when we come out of our mother's womb, not including if our mother was abused while we where in her womb? The answer to that question is a resounding no. When we come out of our mother's womb, our ego/mind/body sense of self is not programmed/conditioned with fear, our ego/mind/body sense of self is new, innocent and is free from fear.

Fear separates our conditioned/preprogrammed sense of self/i am away from our heart feeling of SELF/I AM. This is why our conditioned/preprogrammed sense of self/i am is the one and the same as our heart feeling of SELF/I AM

Our ego/mind/body sense of self is shaped, programmed/conditioned with fear by the experiences and the relationships we have with our environment/surroundings.

Contradictory and/or untrue and misunderstood spiritual and religious premises, notions, concepts, dogma and etc also conditions/programs our ego/mind/body sense of self.

Our father's sperm and our mother's egg is what creates our physical bodies, including our heart and brain where our ego/mind/body sense of self and SELF exists.

Me thinks your answers are not as resounding as you think they are, but I suppose it depends on how one defines the ego. Perhaps instead of just declaring these resounding truths, you could provide some references to where and how they re-sound. In an echo chamber, one can get anything to re-sound, but that does not mean it is a truth.

I am thinking more along the lines of Freud and Loevinger. In Loevinger's 9 stages of ego development, we are not born with the ego.

Infancy
Babies are born with no Ego, their sense of being is not differentiated from the world around them. They are pre-social, communicating only at the perceptual level. This stage of Ego development aligns with the Sensori-Motor stage of Cognitive Development as described by Piaget - see the article Adult Mental Development. The dominant mode of representation of the world is through kinesthetic senses.

From that point forward, an ego slowly develops into a sense of self, an “I”, that is fully developed at stage nine, but of course continues to change throughout life.

https://psychology.wikia.org/wiki/Lo...go_development

The body and the mind are there at birth, but of course even these are changing continuously throughout life. The average age of most cells of the body is 7 to 10 years so excluding some of the brain cells, the body is largely reborn/recreated one a decade or so.

But anyway, yes fear is a major factor shaping the ego, and one major reason to create it in the first place. One cannot plan ahead to face the future and its threats without a model of self to use for planning purposes.

While it is hard to know what a newborn baby feels, it would seem that many experts would agree with you that newborn babies do not feel fear. There are instinctive reactions to feelings such as clinging when experiencing a sense of falling, but awareness of “I am falling” would not seem to be there.

Which I suppose makes sense as they do not yet have an ego or sense of “I” that the brain can assess against a threat to generate fear based on a comparison of the ego “I” model to that threat. Even six months or so later when they may start feeling fear, it would be more of an instinctual generated reaction based on an experience/stimulus that is the same or similar to an earlier experienced one, as they have still not self differentiated in the mind.

As far as the sperm and egg thing goes, yes, that is in line with our conventional understanding of reality based on a common understanding of science. Yet, if we cared to look further to the frontiers of modern science, we start to run into uncertainty about our very understanding of reality and where spacetime and matter come from, and how they ‘exist’. Our common understanding of reality, including all of that Newtonian based science, begins to slowly unravel and we need to rethink what reality may be, how it is generated, and sustained.

As a thought experiment, what if I were an alien species with far far far more advanced technology. And I was able to slide your consciousness into any body I chose at any time period. But unlike in the TV show, you would not be aware of the change, you would simply be dependent on the thoughts and memories of the brain in which you slid into. But lets say, I also was able to create from scratch, the body and brain, at say 40 years old, complete with neurocircuitry which gave you all those supposed memories, and complete with neurocircuitry which told you all about the science of how you and all like you come from sperms and eggs and moms and dads. Perhaps I am doing this to you right now, perhaps in the last hour, I have done it to you 60 times, with 60 completely different yous, and the you you are now, the one who feels he has been around for 40 years (or whatever), has really only been here for 60 seconds, it is just that the current brain I put you in is telling you about a past that is not even yours, a past 'you' that I actually designed and created just a few moments ago.

The point being, be nice to me or who knows what kind of you I might slide you into next!

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

This raises the following important questions:

Are we human born with an ego, which is our sense of our mind/body self or not? The answer to that question is a resounding yes.

Are our ego/mind/body sense of self fully and completly pre-conditioned/preprogrammed with fear when we come out of our mother's womb, not including if our mother was abused while we where in her womb? The answer to that question is a resounding no. When we come out of our mother's womb, our ego/mind/body sense of self is not programmed/conditioned with fear, our ego/mind/body sense of self is new, innocent and is free from fear.

Fear separates our conditioned/preprogrammed sense of self/i am away from our heart feeling of SELF/I AM. This is why our conditioned/preprogrammed sense of self/i am is the one and the same as our heart feeling of SELF/I AM

Our ego/mind/body sense of self is shaped, programmed/conditioned with fear by the experiences and the relationships we have with our environment/surroundings.

Contradictory and/or untrue and misunderstood spiritual and religious premises, notions, concepts, dogma and etc also conditions/programs our ego/mind/body sense of self.

Our father's sperm and our mother's egg is what creates our physical bodies, including our heart and brain where our ego/mind/body sense of self and SELF exists.

Ego is the character/personality entirely constructed by mind as a defense against rejection. It is a facade that mind thinks is the best presentation to satisfy what particular caretakers may find acceptable in the young child to deflect rejection.

Mind does this automatically in response to the childs first experience of rejection. It takes energy for mind to maintain this construction so it monitors it throughout life to see if it can be reduced or eliminated as the child grows and may come to see that not all rejection is justified, and therefore not be so destroyed by it and not so in need of the defense.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

That is only true if the universe/singularity/the eternal right here and right now was not here before the big bang and this is the only "unknown"/"mystery". I do not think any science will be able to prove the following with physical proof/evidence because the answer is available to us when we use pure logic and common sense:

The singularity (or God or brahman or truth, if you wish) is the eternal right here and right now, is beyond time and space, which means the self that is in the physical universe and which is conscious of this eternal right here and right now is also beyond time and space.

We are conceived by our male and female parents in the eternal right here and now, then we are born into the eternal right here and now.

Edit: The eternal right here and now triggers our fears, mental and emotional conditioning/programming because our fears, mental and emotional conditioning/programming contradicts the truth/the eternal right here and right now, and this is what karma and illusions/dreams truly are. Any other concept of karma and illusions/dreams and etc are false and are based on fear-the fear that the truth/eternal right here and now triggers inside of us, to tell us something is not truth.

Yet if there is only the eternal right here and now, then there is no then to be conceived in, no then to be born into, only what is here and now, the rest is just illusory projection backward from here and now. You are in the here and now and all this sperm egg birth stuff is just backstory created as part of the the present experience of here and now to create the illusion of a past chain of events that brought you to this here and now moment. Perhaps then one could create a different backstory in the here and now, a different illusory account of a past that is not really in the past, as there is no past, only the here and now.