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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Hinduism

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  #1  
Old 20-11-2019, 12:17 PM
handy guy handy guy is offline
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Nothing gained nothing lost....

The "Self" as pointed to in the Upanishads and other related teachings can gain nothing nor loose nothing, yet with the mind and soul something can be gained or lost...

thus we have many billions of years of one lifetime of Lord Brahma and creation (that also repeat over and over endlessly) of evolutionary processes with great suffering and joy of soul that begin and end back to the non-evolution of the Self...

is anyone wondering about this scenario? the Self sure isn't....
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  #2  
Old 20-11-2019, 01:17 PM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Basically there is beyond the notion and the experience of losing and gaining something and there is the opposite of that of the mind on a soul level ..

As always there are many levels to concepts like these and one has to keep in context relatively speaking to some extent otherwise there will be a mish mash of different levels and contexts creating a monster of confusion .

From one perspective a husband can lose their wife as a mother can lose their child and gain the experience of suffering and loss .

From another perspective, they never lose their wife because their spirit lives on and on another level what they are is neither human, female a wife and such likes .

So with this in mind there is no right or wrong way to thinking within experience that nullifies the learning that is gained no matter what one believes, because you can still feel the loss of someone even though you know they still live on ..

While you are self aware of the world there is lots to learn, lots to gain and lots to lose and I think even if you believe there is no-one actually here that can lose or gain, then there is no doubt that the knowledge of that was gained in some shape or form unless one has always believed that from the beginning of their own existence and I wouldn't say that is the case for anyone ..


x daz x
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  #3  
Old 20-11-2019, 02:01 PM
handy guy handy guy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
Basically there is beyond the notion and the experience of losing and gaining something and there is the opposite of that of the mind on a soul level ..

As always there are many levels to concepts like these and one has to keep in context relatively speaking to some extent otherwise there will be a mish mash of different levels and contexts creating a monster of confusion .

From one perspective a husband can lose their wife as a mother can lose their child and gain the experience of suffering and loss .

From another perspective, they never lose their wife because their spirit lives on and on another level what they are is neither human, female a wife and such likes .

So with this in mind there is no right or wrong way to thinking within experience that nullifies the learning that is gained no matter what one believes, because you can still feel the loss of someone even though you know they still live on ..

While you are self aware of the world there is lots to learn, lots to gain and lots to lose and I think even if you believe there is no-one actually here that can lose or gain, then there is no doubt that the knowledge of that was gained in some shape or form unless one has always believed that from the beginning of their own existence and I wouldn't say that is the case for anyone ..


x daz x

In Hinduism itself there are many schools with different and contradictory explanations or teachings around this...and yet if all the founders of those schools supposedly realized the same Self then it would follow that there would not be a bunch of different teachings or schools that can never reconcile their differences although at least in Hinduism the differences are supposed to be accepted/tolerated....(with such differences never being accepted in the 3 main Abrahamic related religions)
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  #4  
Old 20-11-2019, 02:25 PM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handy guy
In Hinduism itself there are many schools with different and contradictory explanations or teachings around this...and yet if all the founders of those schools supposedly realized the same Self then it would follow that there would not be a bunch of different teachings or schools that can never reconcile their differences although at least in Hinduism the differences are supposed to be accepted/tolerated....(with such differences never being accepted in the 3 main Abrahamic related religions)



I am presently having the same conversation elsewhere regarding Self that is realized and Self that is theorised about in the name of the almighty Truth lol .

You can have the realization of Self and one it seems can have the notion thereafter that everything self related of the mind is illusory or false or dreamy and certain folk will say this is the Truth even though Self realization doesn't entertain thoughts about self or the world or what losing and gaining means or refers too .

So on one hand you have someone saying it's all illusory and on the other hand can declare that it's all real because Self is real ..

How is it possible for there to be the same Self realization beyond the thought of this world and yet there be totally opposite notions had post realization ..

I have suggested before that there hasn't been fully an integration of the mind had as yet and this is why for some they realize what they are beyond the mind-body and then instantaneously conclude that the mind-body experience must be false or unreal simply based upon these absences beyond the mind ..

The biggest double eyebrow raise that I have is those that proclaim that what we are is this or that based upon the realization itself .. God only knows excuse the pun how one derives at what they do at times . For me these lines of thought are highly questionable .

I have never followed any religious texts as a means of knowing Self so to speak so I don't have confusion or do I have to entertain contradictions or restrictions, but I think the best teachers out there are the one's that allow one to understand their own journey in their own way and simply guide them with their understandings, welcome questions and let the realizations come to them by various means .. normally self enquiry, meditation, yoga and such likes ..


x daz x
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  #5  
Old 20-11-2019, 02:27 PM
Miss Hepburn Miss Hepburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handy guy
The "Self" as pointed to in the Upanishads and other related teachings can gain nothing nor loose nothing,
yet with the mind and soul something can be gained or lost...

Thus we have many billions of years of one lifetime of Lord Brahma and creation
(that also repeat over and over endlessly) of evolutionary processes with great suffering and joy of soul
that begin and end back to the non-evolution of the Self...

is anyone wondering about this scenario? the Self sure isn't....

Nope, not wondering. Would it have the same meaning to help newbies
if this said...''yet with the individualized mind and soul something can be gained or lost"?

Speaking of repetition, it helped my understanding when I read Gary Renard's book,
"The Disappearance of the Universe", when he described our lives
repeating and repeating as being similar to us
watching a movie over and over.

Oh.

(He added that each time we still have that free will choice to
change our reaction within the movie...thus, be released from that repetition.
Eventually, awakening out of the dream - ha, different than just awakening from the dream,
ie, realizing this is a dream or illusion...and
Hindus would say Brahma's dream.)


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.,

"Prepare yourself for the coming astral journey of death by riding daily in a balloon of divine perception.
Through delusion you are perceiving yourself as a bundle of flesh and bones...Meditate unceasingly,
that you quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence"
~~Lahiri Mahasaya, the guru of Yogananda's guru

I have no scientific evidence for anything I say.
Better to PM me if you want me to see a post to me. I miss a lot.







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  #6  
Old 20-11-2019, 03:14 PM
handy guy handy guy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
I am presently having the same conversation elsewhere regarding Self that is realized and Self that is theorised about in the name of the almighty Truth lol .

You can have the realization of Self and one it seems can have the notion thereafter that everything self related of the mind is illusory or false or dreamy and certain folk will say this is the Truth even though Self realization doesn't entertain thoughts about self or the world or what losing and gaining means or refers too .

So on one hand you have someone saying it's all illusory and on the other hand can declare that it's all real because Self is real ..

How is it possible for there to be the same Self realization beyond the thought of this world and yet there be totally opposite notions had post realization ..

I have suggested before that there hasn't been fully an integration of the mind had as yet and this is why for some they realize what they are beyond the mind-body and then instantaneously conclude that the mind-body experience must be false or unreal simply based upon these absences beyond the mind ..

The biggest double eyebrow raise that I have is those that proclaim that what we are is this or that based upon the realization itself .. God only knows excuse the pun how one derives at what they do at times . For me these lines of thought are highly questionable .

I have never followed any religious texts as a means of knowing Self so to speak so I don't have confusion or do I have to entertain contradictions or restrictions, but I think the best teachers out there are the one's that allow one to understand their own journey in their own way and simply guide them with their understandings, welcome questions and let the realizations come to them by various means .. normally self enquiry, meditation, yoga and such likes ..


x daz x

it seems to me that most of the modern day neo-non-duality whatever schools and its teachers are mostly of intellectual theory that has been co-opted with changes from certain schools of Hinduism and Buddhism. Thus i put little stock in same. (since true spiritual power of some kind is a result of although not the goal of Self realization)
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  #7  
Old 20-11-2019, 03:23 PM
handy guy handy guy is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 90
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
I am presently having the same conversation elsewhere regarding Self that is realized and Self that is theorised about in the name of the almighty Truth lol .

You can have the realization of Self and one it seems can have the notion thereafter that everything self related of the mind is illusory or false or dreamy and certain folk will say this is the Truth even though Self realization doesn't entertain thoughts about self or the world or what losing and gaining means or refers too .

So on one hand you have someone saying it's all illusory and on the other hand can declare that it's all real because Self is real ..

How is it possible for there to be the same Self realization beyond the thought of this world and yet there be totally opposite notions had post realization ..

I have suggested before that there hasn't been fully an integration of the mind had as yet and this is why for some they realize what they are beyond the mind-body and then instantaneously conclude that the mind-body experience must be false or unreal simply based upon these absences beyond the mind ..

The biggest double eyebrow raise that I have is those that proclaim that what we are is this or that based upon the realization itself .. God only knows excuse the pun how one derives at what they do at times . For me these lines of thought are highly questionable .

I have never followed any religious texts as a means of knowing Self so to speak so I don't have confusion or do I have to entertain contradictions or restrictions, but I think the best teachers out there are the one's that allow one to understand their own journey in their own way and simply guide them with their understandings, welcome questions and let the realizations come to them by various means .. normally self enquiry, meditation, yoga and such likes ..


x daz x

the "all is illusion" saying is common in many interpretations of Buddhism and certain schools of Hinduism which I see as a potentially dangerous nihilistic falsehood.
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  #8  
Old 20-11-2019, 08:07 PM
handy guy handy guy is offline
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...in one of my previous texts (post #3) I said or raised the question about there not being a bunch of different schools IF... well that IF left something out so to speak, namely that there could be (and obviously are) a bunch of different schools yet the conundrum I see is that most don't have "unity in diversity"; thus taking different paths is fine and is diversity, yet most don't reach or teach a final unity via Self realization. (a Self-realization that is reported not to be a bunch of different or conflicting realizations and conclusions)
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  #9  
Old 20-11-2019, 09:38 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Namaste.

The whole notion of nothing being gained or lost comes from the Isha Upanishad.

ॐ पूर्णमदः पूर्णमिदं पूर्णात्पूर्णमुदच्यते ।
पूर्णस्य पूर्णमादाय पूर्णमेवावशिष्यते ॥
ॐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ॥


Om Puurnnam-Adah Puurnnam-Idam Puurnnaat-Puurnnam-Udacyate |
Puurnnasya Puurnnam-Aadaaya Puurnnam-Eva-Avashissyate ||
Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||

Meaning:

1: Om, That (Outer World) is Purna (Full with Divine Consciousness); This (Inner World) is also Purna (Full with Divine Consciousness); From Purna is manifested Purna (From the Fullness of Divine Consciousness the World is manifested),
2: Taking Purna from Purna, Purna indeed remains (Because Divine Consciousness is Non-Dual and Infinite),
3: Om, Peace, Peace, Peace.

According to the Vedas, the universe is a closed system which obeys the first Law of Thermodynamics - the Law of Conservation.

The ancient Rishis used this to demonstrate the constant, unchanging nature of Brahman Absolute, which is verily the Self.

The Self can neither gain nor lose anything because it already is everything so what is there to be gained or lost?

Even at the end of the Pralaya - the completion of the four Yugas, Brahman still remains....Consciousness still remains because it is neither subject to creation nor destruction and that which we perceive as being gained or lost on a local level is only an illusion when seen from an absolute perspective or from the perspective of Self, rather than from an intellectual understanding of what we merely believe the Self to be according to the ego.

Therefore, the argument of "if we are all Self, then what is/if..." does not compute..it does not apply TO Self because the universe holds its own truths to be SELF evident through the relationship of Prakriti back to Purusha.

If you disagree with the Vedas, find the notion of Maya to be false, unacceptable and nihilistic, have you ever considered the possibility that Hinduism (or Buddhism) may not be the path for you?

Aum Namah Shivaya
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  #10  
Old 20-11-2019, 10:36 PM
handy guy handy guy is offline
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umm, I don't disagree with the revealed teachings of the Vedas and related Upanishads, my point is that different schools of Hinduism with supposedly Self realized founders (which is hard to deny in many of their cases) and their well known lineages disagree with each other on several major and important points! (while still having said to have the same Self realization/unity, and that to me does not compute on a spiritual level)

For instance there are several major disagreements about revealed doctrine within even the 6 main Saivate schools, not to mention even greater divisions and disagreements with other major Hindu sects when it comes to soul, creation, maya, Self realization, Avatars, etc.!

Regardless of that I appreciate the great tolerance and working with others
that so many Hindu's demonstrate!
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