Truth vs Concept

[Unseeking Seeker]

Beginning with the this here now, as it is, we see that we have been accidentally or otherwise been bestowed with a male or female form of a this or that colour, born into a home nurturing conditioned beliefs, which are in turn pushed onto us. So as to adapt, to fit in, we tend to accept in part or full, what religious scriptures say. To make matters worse, we don’t know the deeper meaning of what the religious teaching* (*derived from someone else’s experience) is seeking to convey.

During meditation, which is essentially resting in thought rested silence, intuitively admitting we do not know, we are asking the universe to enlighten us directly. Here too, memory imagery and a longing to repeat a this or that experience we may have had in the past tends to interfere with the offering.

My question is this: if we ultimately need to let go of, to get to, are we not better off as an agnostic to begin with rather than being consumed by conceptual religious fervour? Or perhaps, religion is a great crutch to begin with to stabilise our mind but somewhere along the way, we must release it?

[AngelBlue]

Hi... For me your very last sentence says it all.
Religion is very strange as in this... We learn french for years at school but can rarely recall a few words in later life never mind a full conversation.
Same with physics , chemistry, algebra etc etc. But the teachings of the bible from being an infant has always stayed with me and can recall everything I was taught.
It's almost as though it's a built in instinct to know that religeon is so much more than just maths or french !!!!

My mantra would be this. Teach a child religion , but then allow the child the freedom to choose which religious path to go down, if any and then to respect their choice.
After all , as individuals we can only live our own life.
We cannot live others lives for them.

[Native spirit]

I would agree with Angel


Namaste

[hazada guess]

There are two truths for me with perhaps a third.

1...........mediumship works.I have proof.(from an authentic medium of course)

2............My memories of Pre Birth.

Maybe 3
3 have been in many scrapes in my life and have always been led to a safe way out.

Thats it,but with those facts it convinces me that we have some sort of afterlife and that we are being watched over and guided.As for religion,I tend to stay quiet as I have no knowledge or proof but It may exist so I dont shun it.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

My question is this: if we ultimately need to let go of, to get to, are we not better off as an agnostic to begin with rather than being consumed by conceptual religious fervour? Or perhaps, religion is a great crutch to begin with to stabilise our mind but somewhere along the way, we must release it?

even, 'intuitively admitting we don't know' can become a crutch if one is more interested in decorum than than trying to find something more basic about life... the rule seems to be the less automation the better for such things??????

sometimes though i think i gotta go just a little further than 'release' and actually oppose that which doesn't serve. Not so much in the 'lets get followers and try to get it out of society' way but more in the way of, forcibly ejecting bad thought patterns from my own life regardless of what others want to do with their own.

And I also think, I may not know what to get rid of until I've been made very uncomfortable with the presence of things that hurt... seems like, I'm likely to just coast any time things are pleasant....

[Starman]

In my opinion, as I see it, in this world there is a competition for truth, a competition for God. Wars have been fought over who has the “true” religion, debates and arguments occur even between spiritually oriented peoples. There is an intolerance for differences.

Differences in beliefs, experience, concepts, and theories. An agnostic says “I am open to the prospect of God,” while an atheist may say “there is no God or afterlife.“ A monotheist says there is only one God, while a deist embraces a certain deity or group of deities. A pantheist says everything is God. An they all may feel that they are correct.

The problem is not in feeling correct, the issue is wanting others to see things the way you may see things. Respecting another person’s truth, as long as that truth is not destructive, to me is very important. We can still connect with each other even though we have different points of view. Religion and spirituality has become similar to politics, with liberal and conservative fixed points of view about life, God, etc.

I believe that religion is a good place to start; I started with religion and then moved to psychology, and then science, and then spirituality, etc. It was a building process and each endeavor served me for a period. Letting go is very liberating, although for many hard to do.

There is the story which was told to me long ago by a Swami; he said it is as three blind people who have gone to see an elephant for the first time. One will feel the elephants tail and say an elephant is long and stringy, another will feel the elephants legs and say, no an elephant is like a large tree trunk, and the third feels the elephants ears and say an elephant is like a giant leaf blowing in the wind. They are all correct from their perspective.

[Unseeking Seeker]

@ FallingLeaves ~ when we say that we don’t know, it basically means we do not know in definitiveness, since one concept can be easily substituted with another and we can win debates both for and against the motion if we are verbose enough but yet remain no wiser. Mind thinks, heart feels. The direct knowing is by touch, by feeling.

About inner conflict as your post is suggesting, as a general principle we can say that that which expands is good, that which contracts is bad. Here we must distinguish between desire/aversion impulses related to ego or identity vs those related to soul or let us say our being, which always is, our aliveness, consciousness, whatever we term it as.

Essentially an orientation of embrace & release is the opposite of negation, which is a popular stance suggested in some teachings. We imbibe everything in innocence yet release it instantly, thus ensuring we do not cling, do not stagnate, do not get attached, which also requires attention to flow in the now-continuum.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

My question is this: if we ultimately need to let go of, to get to, are we not better off as an agnostic to begin with rather than being consumed by conceptual religious fervour? Or perhaps, religion is a great crutch to begin with to stabilise our mind but somewhere along the way, we must release it?

For me agnostic is one who is indifferent whether there is God or not - one without vision or conviction.

And for me being religious is being open,positive,scientific,intelligent,faithful , hopeful , inquisitive ,analytical , collaborative ,honest, diligent,vigilant,tolerant,just .....etc words and time may fall short. Being religious does not mean being dogmatic,hallucinating ,superstitious or ignorant.

Of course I see this may not always be a fact everywhere/every time due to historical/cultural/psychological reasons .

But with this perspective , my choice is obvious for me - I prefer being such religious over being agnostic for good for life. This may not hold good for others .

I dont see religious beliefs as crutch (used by disabled / sick / aged people) . For me its very powerful versatile or having midas touch .

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

Or perhaps, religion is a great crutch to begin with to stabilize our mind but somewhere along the way, we must release it?

Religion doesn't really exist much in my house. There are a few "religious" statues or little figurines I rarely am aware of but when I notice them I don't really think much. I have a buddha statue above my desk I really like. It sometimes reminds me of something profound I think when I rarely notice it there. Total peace within and without. Zero religious authorities or priests or teachers and so on in my house. It's just me and a couple of others. So not really any religion here. A few "religious" books I rarely look at as well.

I'm not aware of anything here to release or be concerned about. Now sugar I am fighting though. I want to be 10 pounds lighter. Yea goodies are my only concern in my house. Oh and my mind of course. Learning to be empty and have no conflict within and without. This includes the sugar as what makes me eat too much or eat the wrong things? Well my body and it's mind.

Self discipline is a spiritual thing I think. Today I am fasting on just water. It feels wonderful! I like the feeling of having control over my body and it's mind. Hunger is there but I just ignore it. Then I forget it's there. That's like religion. I forget it exists a lot or am not aware of it. I'm busy with my attention on other things.

Release is an interesting word I think. I think it can be good or bad. Depends what one means by the word. I guess the first post was about an idea we are somehow carrying something we need to release. I don't think it's really about "release" as what do I have to do with what's in my brain! Lot's of junk in there. My thing would be to not pay it any mind. If my attention is not on my thoughts or thinking it doesn't matter one bit what's in there. Even if some religious thought came it doesn't really have any effect on me if I can ignore my thoughts. (Not have my attention on thinking.)

My consciousness can be just empty or on non-sense. Pleasant distractions and pleasures. I think if you ignore your thoughts and thinking a lot the brain stops making thoughts as there is no point for such an activity. But then in other ways maybe I think a lot. But thinking too is a complicated thing. Like having one's attention and identification on the brain produced interpretations of the now is very different from using thought to aide in the observation and analysis of thought itself. I think thought is a tool we can use or a thing that can create certain experiences in the now. So thought I think to can be good or bad. I think thought can be a way to aid liberation or the thing creating bondage in the first place.

Someone could say "I am thinking" but what that individual actually is and is doing is not the same in anyone. It may depend on how detached they are from thought for example or how aware they are of the difference between them (conscious awareness) and words in their thought stream.

[Starman]

Many who have had spiritual experiences use concepts to interpret that experience. Lots of religious and spiritual books use parables and metaphors, to describe the experience of non-duality.

In my opinion it is beyond words and as soon as we apply words to it, it becomes a concept. I refer to what Anthony de Mello, an Indian Jesuit Priest and psychotherapist, among other things, has said about this:

“As soon as you look at the world through an ideology you are finished. No reality fits an ideology. Life is beyond that. That is why people are always searching for a meaning to life. But life has no meaning; it cannot have meaning because meaning is a formula; meaning is something that makes sense to the mind. Every time you make sense out of reality, you bump into something that destroys the sense you made. Meaning is only found when you go beyond meaning. Life only makes sense when you perceive it as mystery and it makes no sense to the conceptualizing mind.“