The Depraved

Luke 23:34
34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Persons not aware that they are not aware.

[sky]

Originally Posted by AbodhiSky

Well I've seen people post about wrong beliefs some ancient Christians had, what's that like 2000 years lol? Some are mad about what was done to someone in their family tree like 200 to 400 years ago. Five generations back, ten generations back?

Deflection comes to mind
"Why do you think evil in your hearts?” Matthew 9:4.
Now this is very insightful....

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by AbodhiSky

Well I've seen people post about wrong beliefs some ancient Christians had, what's that like 2000 years lol? Some are mad about what was done to someone in their family tree like 200 to 400 years ago. Five generations back, ten generations back?

I was thinking: maybe a thread should be started dealing with christophobia.

[Gem]

The questionable aspect is a value judgment as to the worth of a person and their just desert. I think it's quite obvious that Christianity holds that God judges in that way, judgment day, heaven, hell and so forth.

There is also Christian ethos about not judging, which I agree with, but my reasons are a bit different. The reason I find it difficult to judge is I can see myself fabricating an identity or self-image upon which I cast judgment. It's literally all in my own head. That's not to say I don't discern that some people are deceitful, selfish, vain and dangerous - and I avoid them - preferring instead to associate with the kind and trustworthy. It's just that past behaviour is a good predictor of future behaviour, but behaviour doesn't actually imply an identity that behaves; or, behaviour does not define 'a person'.

So, the notion that God judges a person, and doles out just desert, is a belief that depends on a quandry: 'what is a person? In Christianity a person is an eternal being, AKA, an identical identity, and a willful being who can defy the will of God. On this criteria, Christians can assess if someone is depraved by assuming to know God's will. However once that is assumed, the judgment is one that you make.

In my case I assess if behaviours are depraved by the nature o the intent, if the motivation is to hurt and harm or based in greed or self-aggrandisment, it's depravity. But there is no one there who is depraved.

[sky]

Originally Posted by AbodhiSky

Luke 23:34
34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots..

Another judgment Jesus said ' for they know not what they do '
A Teacher points out what they percieve as right/wrong by judging the Pupils actions/thoughts etc: and shows them the correct way..... Jesus was a Teacher. " You call me Teacher and Lord, and rightly so, for that is what I am" (John 13:13).

[Gem]

Originally Posted by AbodhiSky

Luke 23:34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

That's probably the best line in the Bible. My favorite at least. It implies the importance of self-awareness. It's a highly moral statement because you really have to know what your motives are moment to moment, which is a very truthful practice. If you think about it, the whole of morality rests on truthful self-awareness...

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Gem

... It implies the importance of self-awareness. It's a highly moral statement because you really have to know what your motives are moment to moment, which is a very truthful practice. If you think about it, the whole of morality rests on truthful self-awareness...

Great insight.
Thanks AbodhiSky for bringing it up.

Originally Posted by Gem

if behaviors are depraved by the nature of the intent, if the motivation is to hurt and harm or based in greed or self-aggrandizement, it's depravity. But there is no one there who is depraved.

True. Adding to those ideas a little bit, the perceiver takes on the qualities of that which it identifies with and has an experience based on that identification with those elements. Those things one has identified with are projected outwardly and inwardly. One "embodies" them.

So the experience of another is that one is there that is depraved. One also experiences themselves as depraved though they will conceptualize it as justified and proper.

So in this way of looking at things, intent is not the issue. It's false identification. One merely takes on the functions and processes of what it has identified with. And the issue for false identification is a lack of awareness.

That explains Jesus's statement. The cause is ignorance. They know not what they do. It's also worth noting that eastern religions also name ignorance as the cause of non-spiritual being.

So it's not that one choses to be bad, to be immoral, to be depraved, there is no intent to be such, it's one identifies with things that create a warped depraved perspective and identity and so bad immoral actions result.

Is the perceiver depraved or immoral if has identified with things that create self-aggrandizement or other immoral behaviors and experiences? Well if the cause is a lack of awareness, what brings about more awareness? The simple observable answer is experience and contemplation based on the given of seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. Given enough time and experience, one learns and becomes aware of more. Logically then the cause of immorality is a lack of experience. That soul or perceiver simply needs more time or more experience. So the perceiver is not to blame. And according to Jesus, persons who do bad things should be "forgiven" by God as the cause of their misdeeds was ignorance. Not knowing what they are doing.

But that does not wipe away what happens to those lacking awareness. A crude example is someone hits their head everyday on a low tree branch because they are not paying attention to their environment. They are lacking in that awareness. Everyday for years until the day they die, they hit their head on that low tree branch. They lacked awareness it was there. If one does not "get it" from the experience of suffering, what is the result? Make that suffering greater until they do get it! Make them hit that tree branch harder. Make the tree branch bigger. (metaphors!) They must become aware of the pain and suffering then seek a way to be free of it. That leads to more awareness. The realization this pain is bad and how can I be free of it.

One is always seeking pleasure or avoiding pain or suffering. That journey becomes more and more subtle and nuanced as one advances in understanding and awareness.

Originally Posted by Gem

you really have to know what your motives are moment to moment,

Totally an exercise of increasing awareness. Similar to paying attention of where my attention is. Breaking the bonds of unconscious identification.

Are we having confusion over the meaning of judgement ? When the Bible says “judge not” it is speaking of the judgement that results in condemnation to hell. This is solely the province of God…..not ours…..God as the giver of life is the only one that can legitimately be the taker of life.

Our common way of using ‘judgement’ is more in the sense of assessing something, resulting in a decision of how to respond to that situation. Some have spoken as leading them to shun others, etc. Perhaps our assessment(judging) should lead us to help(love) others…….that certainly seemed to be the MO of Christ.