Three Questions

[Uday_Advaita]

Three Questions
Seekers all over the world are intrigued by the illusive state of
Enlightenment, Awakening, Self knowledge and ...... whatever way this Ultimate Understanding is referred to in ..... Books, Lectures, Satsangs, Seminars and what not. A poor seeker goes from door to door in search of the ABOVE
I have been contemplating on the three questions that have puzzled me and would request members of this group to throw some light:

1. How do you know you are Enlightened?
2. What Enlightenment will do to you - to this MIND-BODY APPARATUS?
3. How Enlightenment would be of any use to you in your day to day life?

Obviously - I can easily see - that only an Enlightened person can answer these questions. Lesser mortals like me can only wonder.

However, whether Enlightened or Not, i would humbly request members to share their understanding. It may provide some comfort to many of us.
Namaskar

[Unseeking Seeker]

I don’t know about enlightenment but we can obviously notice shifts within that lead to greater understanding of who we are as we oscillate between the three Gunas* (*purity, desire and sloth) and feel sometimes separateness, at other times interconnectedness and when graced, oneness.

On a first principle basis, beginning abinitio, we can see that we are in inner conflict. Head and heart are misaligned. Taking head to be the ego (identity) and heart as seat of soul (unconditional love), in my view, path any, we need to bring head and heart in alignment, in resonance with love.

What happens then is that our outlook is no longer narrow. We are poised, centred, equanimous, in surrender and both receptive as well as acceptant. Our heart lotus blooms, compassion dawns.

There are many interim coordinates, which the universe enables and we enjoy the journey. The evident pitfall at any stage is assigning ownership to the benedictions bestowed upon us. However, if we amble along nonchalantly in an aspect of embrace and release, we are free at every moment.

An easy way of recognising where we are, may be summed up in these lines:

Questions ceased when we became the answer ~
Requiring thereafter no translator

[inavalan]

The way I understand it, the path to enlightenment is infinite. So, one can say that he believes to understand more; he believes he is more enlightened that some time ago.

I believe that whoever believes himself to be Enlightened, meaning he reached the absolute knowledge, he is fooling himself. Same, if one believes about anybody else to be Enlightened, including the greatest avatars and gurus.

We are all here to learn and grow. We aren't all on the same level, as the pupils attending a school are in different grades, learning lessons at their level of ability.

In my opinion, you could learn something from a guru or from a dogma, as you learn in school from a teacher, or from a handbook, but you have to be aware that you don't know how good your teacher is, and you can't rely on others' opinions either, no matter how convincing they are, how well meaning they are. A bad teacher or dogma may lead you more astray than your current level of ignorance.

Again as I see these, your best and most trustworthy source of knowledge and guidance is your inner guide. So, you need to learn to get in touch with it, and with your subconscious, adopting the position of the ignorant but eager pupil, leaving aside all your beliefs when you contact them, in order to minimize the inherent distortions in your understanding.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

...
Questions ceased when we became the answer ~
Requiring thereafter no translator

I believe that if one feels that he has no more questions, that is an indication that he is an impasse. There will always be the question: "what should I do now?". Learning and growth are infinite. Those who get stuck with no questions, if that isn't overcome, reach a state of mental growth stagnation, that has physical health and / or behavioral impact. At the latest, when we die we wake up from some confusion.

Bernhard Kutzler has an interestin hypothesis about the effects of mental growth stagnation:

Why Did Indian Sage Ramana Maharshi Die of Cancer at Age 70?

I give it only for reference, not that I fully support it.

[Maisy]

1. I think someone knows "enlightenment" is present because they see the inherent objective truth in their perception.

2. The new perception more closely aligned with objective or the actual truth and not subjective created truth frees one from the "truth" of the subjective experience.

3. It makes you happier, more at peace, less likely to have negative emotions less reactive in a negative way, calmer, more patient and accepting. Understanding takes the place of subjective judging. It makes you a better, kinder, and more humble human being.

Of course some who claim to be enlightened have massive egos but I would say they are not really enlightened.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by inavalan

Bernhard Kutzler has an interestin hypothesis about the effects of mental growth stagnation: ... I give it only for reference, not that I fully support it.

I read this and was somewhat unimpressed. He compares Ramana Maharshi who lived a healthy stress-free life and died of cancer at 70 with Pablo Picasso who lived an unhealthy life and died at 91.

Bernhard Kutzler's theory? Ramana Maharshi had little interest in physical life and thus he stopped growing and so developed cancer. Whereas Picasso was endlessly fascinated by life and was always trying new things, always growing mentally.

Bernhard Kutzler states: One could argue that Ramana did not care about physical life, but about spiritual life. But there is no spiritual life without physical life. Life is a physical phenomenon. Without a body, the spirit/mind has no way to express itself, have experiences, and grow from them. Mental/spiritual growth is based on a body. Not caring about the body means not caring about further growth. Because of Ramana’s mindset and ascetic lifestyle, his growth force had no channel other than the cell level, so he developed cancer.

My opinion? Bernhard Kutzler's understanding is exceedingly limited.

Peace

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Uday_Advaita

1. How do you know you are Enlightened?

We don't. In some ways Enlightenment is a meaningless label. Some may regard enlightenment as an end-goal, but whatever our state of consciousness can we ever really say that we have arrived at a final destination and there is nothing more to attain?

I prefer to consider enlightenment as the end of one cycle and the start of a new cycle on a higher turn of the spiral.

Originally Posted by Uday_Advaita

2. What Enlightenment will do to you - to this MIND-BODY APPARATUS?

I like Aurobindo's approach. Realisation happens in two stages. First there is the realisation of the Divine within and then there is the descent of the Divine into the mind-body apparatus. It is the descent of the Divine which transforms the mind-body apparatus.

So initially the realisation has no effect on the mind or the emotions or the body. They remain unchanged. But as the Divine descends into these vehicles it pushes all blockages to the surface to be released. It is a process of becoming empty, but in this process whatever issues we have will need to be examined and dealt with.

So it is a process of grounding and embodying the initial realisation of the Divine. Which may take decades for some, depending on the make-up of the mind-body apparatus.

Originally Posted by Uday_Advaita

3. How Enlightenment would be of any use to you in your day to day life?

The realisation of the Self is a state of freedom. This is not the freedom to do whatever we want, but the freedom of knowing the Self to exist without limits.

The realisation of the Self is a state of emptiness. The Self has no qualities, it simply is and it allows all things to exist within itself.

The realisation of the Self is a state of fullness. It is complete. Nothing can be added to it because there is nowhere where the Self is not. So in one sense it is the end of all seeking.

The realisation of the Self is a state of stillness. It is unchanging. How can that which is limitless ever change? If there is one thing everywhere then how can this change to become something different. And in this stillness there is peace.

But Consciousness, as the expression of the Self, may still strive to be an ever more clear expression, to fully embody this in the human vehicle.

Peace

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by iamthat

I read this and was somewhat unimpressed. ...

My opinion? Bernhard Kutzler's understanding is exceedingly limited.

We read the same thing, and understand it differently ...

As I understood it, Kutzler's point was about Ramana's mental stagnation leading to cancer, a breakthrough at cellular level.

In other cases, mental stagnation breaks through at other levels, at tissue level manifesting as e.g. obesity, or at behavioral level manifesting as e.g. excessive sensorimotor activities.

I believe Kutzler had a good point that Ramana, as other gurus, mentally stagnated. So, his cancer wasn't about his neglecting his body. Compare to Niz, who had a less healthy lifestyle (heavy smoker), but lived longer. Niz talked about that. link

I don't compare here Niz and Ramana's levels of realization, or beliefs.

Also, I don't fully support Kutzler's model, who is physically oriented, which I'm not. Thought is primary, matter is secondary. Thought is cause, experiencing is effect.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by inavalan

As I understood it, Kutzler's point was about Ramana's mental stagnation leading to cancer, a breakthrough at cellular level.

I would hardly consider Ramana Maharshi as an example of mental stagnation. A still mind, a mind without thoughts, is not the same as a stagnant mind.

I do think that Ramana Maharshi's perspective on the mind and body was simply beyond Kutzler's understanding.

Peace

[Unseeking Seeker]

Originally Posted by inavalan

if one feels that he has no more questions, that is an indication that he is an impasse

mind doubts, heart knows.

connected with universal consciousness what we receive is wisdom in definitiveness, instantaneous as opposed to fragmented thought that deduces, biscects from a limited perspective.

it’s not that we stop growing or stagnate, no. however the stance being that receptivity allows emptiness to be filled with the elixir of higher mind in fullness, whereupon we be to become the truth, leaving no doubts within.