Why spiritual life is so truthful

[Redchic12]

Yes starman I totally agree with you. I feel there is a difference between believing and knowing. Experience is knowing! And I tend to sit on the fence unless I can say I KNOW.

[Starman]

Redchic12, now to contradict myself; because all I really know is that I don’t know, and
I am really not interested in the fantasies of my beliefs. Life to me is an unpredictable ride with
various entrances and exits, and the fewer conclusions I draw from this ride the better off I am.
Still, I do rely on the experiences encountered, especially the ones with impact. But if I draw any
conclusion, it is that life is so paradoxical.

Peace

[JustBe]

Oh I can relate Gem.
Being raised a catholic, when the time came to see the truth in my beliefs, I really had no idea what would arise because of that clarity/truth revealing. My religious conditioning encompassed so much of my life, which in turn addressed all that at once. So the fallout was at that time very difficult to let go.

I think those that understand both sides of this, have the ability to understand the truth from an awareness of being with and being without beliefs.

Ultimately it’s a guiding marker to get very comfortable with living with the unknown.

I think opening to yourself in this way, allows for a deeper experience of self and life. When your not filled by something outside yourself, your experience of you and life is no longer dependent upon something. There is no mould or fitting into ‘something’ but rather you fit yourself.

[Redchic12]

Yes starman I agree saying I DONT KNOW cos it leaves you open to what is. I also love what you said Gem, when you are not filled with something outside yourself your experience of you and life is no longer dependent on something. Well said!

[winter light]

Just a few more thoughts for consideration. Beliefs are in some regard just an effect of organized thought, from our being in a body. Once we have organized our thoughts it enables us to function in a stable way and to share experiences through a shared understanding. So this is the function of a religious perspective, and whatever religious ideas I have integrated are those I think I can share.

I really do not combine beliefs and spirituality anymore than is needed to interpret my experience. If someone tells me something and it resonates, then I follow it. If something does not resonate, I look within to better understand why I cannot accept it and eventually a deeper understanding comes along.

And if I get deeper understandings that conflicts with something I read or thought was true, then it is usually a merging process. An evolved understanding of the truth. So truth does not seem to be a static thing. And you need to somewhat accept everything if you want to have some universal truth.

But people have beliefs that form their perspective and sometimes deeply they are identified with it. So I need to consider the person behind the beliefs. As long as someone else is identified with their beliefs then I need to respect the beliefs as a would the person while I am interacting with them.

For me spirituality is a shared experience or nothing at all. Much of it is shared on an inner level that is hidden from sight. But in other ways this shared reality is logical and self-evident from cause and effect in the world.

Beliefs are like our agreements for notes on a scale, they are not the music but they represent it. The music is an effect of our being. Sometimes an interpretation through our beliefs and sometimes a response that creates something completely new.

These are my ideals though. How I currently see things and where I am going. It is a learning process.

[Redchic12]

Omg that was such a wonderful comment. I am in total agreement with what you said and couldn’t have put it better myself! I particularly liked the part were u said “a response that creates something new”. This is what i was trying to say in one of my previous threads ie instead of blindly believing something but not really KNOWING isn’t the way for me to go but if I say I DONT KNOW then it opens the way for something new to come in. I can then process that and see if it resonates or not. But if I say I BELIEVE. Then that closes me off to any possibilities.

[Gem]

There is a war between truth and faith. The belief exists in a vacuum of faith where the truth is unknown. Hence, all belief is questionable, and therefore riddled with doubt.

The truth, by definition, must be universal. IOW what is true for me is also true for you. For example, things change. Everyone knows that's true. Holding a belief and claiming it is the truth is the fatal flaw of religion. It's better to say I am a Christian so I believe in the salvation, but I honestly don't know if it's really true. The problem is they tell us such doubt is our ticket to hell, and that is despicable.

No one can choose what they believe or disbelieve, and I have no place trying to convince believers not to believe or vice versa. I could probably only reasonably say as humans we have an ability for truth, self-awareness and self-honesty, but exercising the ability can sometimes be uncomfortable.

[Redchic12]

Originally Posted by Gem

There is a war between truth and faith. The belief exists in a vacuum of faith where the truth is unknown. Hence, all belief is questionable, and therefore riddled with doubt.
The truth, by definition, must be universal. IOW what is true for me is also true for you.

CAnt believe someone could say “doubt is a ticket to hell”. Despicable as you say and also delusional. Hell is just a place that the priests and scribes from later days used as a way of controlling the people. That’s my beliefs anyway.

[kris]

Originally Posted by Gem

Holding a belief and claiming it is the truth is the fatal flaw of religion.

I agree. When someone says "this is the truth", it is troubling. As for religion, I have never felt a need for religion, cannot think of any use for it and cannot imagine wasting my time on it. I think it is a misguided notion without any rational or logical basis.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Gem

all belief is questionable, and therefore riddled with doubt.

The truth, by definition, must be universal. IOW what is true for me is also true for you.

Indeed this true for ALL beliefs including the one quoted.

Originally Posted by Gem

The problem is they tell us such doubt is our ticket to hell, and that is despicable.

Probably because spirituality works only when our belief is 100% devoid of doubt.Agnostic do not succeed in spirituality.

Originally Posted by gem

No one can choose what they believe or disbelieve, and I have no place trying to convince believers not to believe or vice versa.

Will there be challenge/fun in life?