Do you even lift?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Lucky 1

61 in a few weeks.

100 kilos (225 lbs) and do 4 sets to failure....
First set equels around 28 to 30 reps or a bit less depending on how im feeling that day.....
upper body.....lower body
I also ride my bicycle

That is incredible elite performance for just about any male, let alone someone over 60! Barbell squats are hard because of the whole body bracing with internal pressure of the breath. Bracing up 20-30 times is really hard training, and high rep barbell squats to failure is probably the hardest training known to mankind!

Yep. Upper/lower works, and I think it's best for most because it's simplest split.

Just general info, the hypertrophy stimulation from a hard training day remains activated for about 72 hours, so hitting a muscle group hard every three days (or twice a week) is pretty much the optimum frequency, so I think upper/lower with a 4 day split (lower/upper/rest/lower/uppea/rest/rest) is rally effective, and the 2 day rest on the weekend allows full recovery to the nervous system over all.

If you thought about a training cycle, you could be doing pretty high reps for most of the time, and work toward more specific training for some heavier lifting. Maybe even do a 1RM every 6 months or so. You could be out there winning powerlifting trophies in your age class no doubt. Probably even a world record contender.

Cardio/cycle works wonders, and is actually shown to be really good for Neuron health (Brain CNS) via the production of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF). "Neurotrophic" just means neuron protective. Strength training is not shown to be as helpful to brain health compared to cardio as far as we currently know - but cardio is off the charts.

I did a research review for a fitness newsletter I used to publish monthly and this is the conclusion based on the studies that have been done up till 2020.

What practical takeaways can we take from the research?

Resistance training typical of gym goers induces immediate elevations in BDNF after a minimum of 5
weeks of training. Full body routines incorporating compound exercises using free weights at 60-80%
intensities are most effective, though the well trained equally benefit from higher intensities. The
elevations in BDNF are acute and return to baseline 30 minutes after a bout.

The overall research on resistance training shows cognitive improvement in the elderly after they
commence resistance training (Li, 2018), so it is likely that acute elevations in BDNF from lifting
weights has some neuroprotective effect, but we cannot say for sure.

In comparison, aerobic exercise clearly induces acute and chronic resting BDNF elevations. The BDNF
related neuroprotective benefits of aerobic training have repeatedly been demonstrated across a range
of age groups and neurological and psychological disorders.

We can therefore conclude from the available evidence that aerobic exercise is optimal for the development, growth, repair and survival
of neurons, and hence, the long-term preservation of neurological and cognitive health.

Concluding points

• BDNF is the neurotrophin most responsive to exercise
• Resistance training typical of gym goers acutely elevates BDNF levels after 5 weeks of training
• Resistance training induced BDNF elevations last about 30 minutes
• There is no evidence for chronic BDNF elevations in response to any resistance training protocol
• Acute BDNF elevations from lifting weights probably have neuroprotective benefits but evidence
is inconclusive
• Regular aerobic exercise of sufficient intensity induces acute and chronic BDNF elevations
• Aerobic training almost certainly outperforms resistance training for long-term
cognitive/neurological health
• People undertaking resistance training should include regular 30-minute bouts of cardio for
neuroprotective benefits

[Gem]

Protein for muscle gain or weight loss for vegetarians

Meat eating is not essential, but it is unlikely that vegetarians consume quantities of protein replete with essential amino acids to optimally promote muscle growth or prevent muscle loss while losing weight.

Let's take the case of a 60kg (130lb) female to represent a 'healthy weight' for females of around average height of 5'3" say. The daily protein intake would be 90g to 100g.

Let's also assume the female has 3 meals a day. That means protein would ideally be 30 - 33g at each meal. This make sense because the dose of protein needed to fully activate muscle growth via the metabolic path (mTor) is about 30g. (this really means about 3g of the amino acid leucine, but that's devil's detail).

To get 30g protein from boiled lentils is about 1.6 cups... so it's about 5 cups a day. You'd need 5 eggs to get your brecky protein, so maybe 3 eggs, some yogurt with oats could do the trick... but the calories start building up, and you need to get the protein without blowing out on calories.

That's just a couple of examples to show it's possible, totally doable, but not easy, to optimise protein intake from vege food.

In comparison, 90g protein could come from 350g of meat/chicken/fish - or just under 100g when cooked 3 times a day would be the total need. That's not much. However, since we also get protein from plant food, the meat requirement is even less. Not very much at all.

The last issue is protein quality. Plant sources generally do not contain all the essential amino acids, and are comparatively low in leucine (the amino acid that stimulates hypertrophy). Hence, we are well advised to eat more plant protein... which makes it even harder.

All this is why I think vegetarians can get a lot of their protein from whole food, but can optimise their intake by consuming a protein powder shake once a day. The latest research on blended plant protein supplements showed they are equal to whey protein.

For vege's, a whey protein concentrate would be OK, and pea protein powder is just fine. You can pay more for isolates and plant blends, but I don't think it makes a lot of difference.

[JustBe]

Lol you answered my question.

I was going to ask about protein powders.

Looking at them all today, I was thinking where do you start.

What do you use yourself?

[Lucky 1]

Originally Posted by Gem

That is incredible elite performance for just about any male, let alone someone over 60! Barbell squats are hard because of the whole body bracing with internal pressure of the breath. Bracing up 20-30 times is really hard training, and high rep barbell squats to failure is probably the hardest training known to mankind!

Yep. Upper/lower works, and I think it's best for most because it's simplest split.

LOL....I don't know how elite I am anymore!!!

Those sets of squats look like this depending on how I feel...usually meaning how much sleep I managed to get)

First set ......25 to 30 (rest 5 minutes between each set)
2nd set.......10 to 15
3rd set 7 to 9
4th set...if I'm up to it....3 to 4

I feel like this routine allows me to hit both fast and slow twitch muscle fibers and works well for me.

Some calf work and leg curls on a Cybex standing leg curl machine that allows each leg separately and that's it for legs

Honestly, back in my 20's when I did compete I started out in the 165's and a couple of years later moved to the 181 class.

I can't claim to ever have been that competitive but it was fun and I was really into it at that time.....you know, alpha male fantasies and such....lol!

Back then I had a big deadlift and squat but a very un-competitive beach press hampering my lift total....having narrow clavicles I'm just not a great bench-presser.....back then I was doing singles with 295 to 315 and the winners were literally doing 100 pounds more then that!

It took me 25 years to get it through my head that from a fitness stand point all I really get from flat barbell bench press is irritated rotator cuff's.

Now As an old fart, I do all my chest work with flat or inclined dumbbell press's and occasional press's on a Cybex chest machine.

[Aupmanyav]

Gem, I am 80, want to start again. If I buy something, it will be useful for my grandson also (he is 12). You have recommended Chuck Norris bench. I know my limitations and am always careful of them (one with a 65 years of (light) smoking). Good that you started this topic.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Lucky 1

...

True, barbell bench is really rough on the shoulders. I am over 6 foot with a narrow skeleton, 'lanky', so I squat and deadlift like a baby giraffe drinking water, but I have full range of motion, my posture is fine and form looks good, so they're my foundational exercises. I think they are essential basic movements for anyone who can do them. In my practice I go through a few stages to make sure people are straightened out and symmetrical before using barbells, and all my clients no matter their age have been able to perform all the compound barbell exercises - and none have been injured. The trick is there are no barbells for at least 4 months (usually much longer). We have to get the muscles firing properly, with symmetry, mind/muscle connection, correct skeletal posture, get joint mobility through full range of motion, be able to maintain good form, have control of significant weight and build above average strength base... then we can play with the barbells. That's why all my clients can do the Big 5 regardless of age and my injury count is zero. I did have one guy with a bit of deformity in the hip shape, so he never did Barbell back squats. His previous trainers used to program them for him, but that's because they didn't really understand the anatomy behind the physiology of squats. When I told the guy his hip bone makes back squatting an inadvisable injury risk he was very relieved. Leg press+good mornings no problem. Very few personal trainers understand these things. I came up with powerlifting + snatch and clean and jerk with the overhead movements, and in my opinion, trainers who don't get those big compound movements in detail aren't going to be much good.

[JustBe]

Are all personal trainers as informed as you Gem?

Your exceptional in so many ways. When I’m listening to the extent of how you train and the way and which and why, I have to ask if your ability and training is what most personal trainers should know and do for clients.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Are all personal trainers as informed as you Gem?

No. I don't want to brag, but it's true that only a few trainers are at my level. Most are OK for basics, but don't properly understand how the whole body works as a single moving dynamic. I hear them in the gym telling their client to do things wrong, they don't have a systematic progression, they don't know how to organise training cycles properly, hardly anyone understands feet, and they aren't keeping up with research... but there are a few peers I look up to who are really outstanding. If you join a gym, observe the trainers, and you'll notice the one that stands out. A gym would usually have 1 or 2 outstanding trainers, and a handful of substandard ones, so don't rush in. Just watch what's going on and over time you'll notice one that stands out. That's the one to hire.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Aupmanyav

Gem, I am 80, want to start again. If I buy something, it will be useful for my grandson also (he is 12). You have recommended Chuck Norris bench. I know my limitations and am always careful of them (one with a 65 years of (light) smoking). Good that you started this topic.

I'm delaying a reply because older people are complex, over 70 is pretty specialised, and over 80 comes with a lot of risk factors. The main problem being, if something goes wrong, a fairly innocuous injury for a young person could be the beginning of the end in a person of your age.

In your case, the Norris apparatus is probably not a great idea. The apparatus is a bench that rolls on a frame with cables. If it gets out of control and you pull something, you know recovery is not easy for the elderly, and a 'little accident' can be a disaster for old folk.

The main issue with training, apart from the risk factors, is age related degeneration of muscle tissue. It's called sarcopenia. Hence we cannot expect a lot growth in muscle tissue, though we can expect quite a bit, and more to the point, weight training for hypertrophy in people over a 'certain age' mainly attenuates and/or slows down the progression of sarcopenia.

However, although a Charles Atlas physique is unrealistic, strength gains can be very significant indeed. This is because rather than the muscles getting a whole lot bigger, the motor neurons (nerves that fire the muscle fibers) can be stimulated to carry a lot more electricity and therefore make the muscles contract much, much harder and faster than they used to.

There is a lot within the nervous system, and improved reaction times, improved explosive power and more stable balance in compromised positions generally mitigates the risks associated with falls...

Training for old people is firstly risk mitigation through posture, good exercise skill and form, and in all the mentioned ways. Secondly maximising muscle mass and maintaining it for as long as possible, and thirdly, increasing strength, mobility and power for a full, independent and active life for as long as possible.

I'm not worried about smoking, and have never told anyone to quit. Everyone knows better not smoke anyway, so I don't need to tell them. On the contrary, I say if you really enjoy a smoke, then go for it and be happy, but less is better. It just means the person gets puffed more easily, heart rate can get high quickly, and might have dizzy spells sometimes.

If you could join a gym and hire a properly qualified and experienced trainer in mature age training, that would be best. Older people generally need a more specialised approach. However, most trainers are not appropriately qualified, are too scared of hurting old people, and grossly underestimate the capabilities of older folk. They'll treat you with kid gloves as if you're made of glass... and in my experience, it's not the case. Old guys can just about do what a 40 year old can do, but it takes a couple of years to realise that potential... and you will be surprised that the potential is much higher than you ever imagined.


I wrote the following article a few tears ago for my newsletter. Unfortunately the images won't post here, but the text is still very informative. It is very good background knowledge.

Sarcopenia: what is it and how to avoid it

What is sarcopenia?
Sarcopenia is the age-related degeneration of skeletal muscle mainly characterised by the loss of Type II (fast twitch) muscle fibres.
Type II muscle fibres are muscle fibres that generate fast contractions for powerful, explosive movement and feats of strength. They are also the muscle fibres that grow as an adaption to resistance exercise. Naturally, the loss of Type II fibres due to sarcopenia correlates with the loss of muscle size, physical strength, and the ability to move explosively and/or adjust quickly for balance.
There is little to no age-related degeneration of Type I (slow twitch) muscle fibres, which are smaller muscle fibres that contract more slowly and are responsible for endurance.
The image (below) compares the muscle mass of a 25-year-old male on the left to that of a 63—year-old on the right.

At what age does sarcopenia start?
Sarcopenia generally begins at the 45-50 age range. The rate of muscle mass loss after age 50 can range between 0.5 and 1% per annum, affecting mostly those who have sedentary lifestyles.

Can sarcopenia be prevented?
There is no way of stopping sarcopenia. It can only be slowed down in healthy individuals. Resistance training and appropriate nutrition is the most effective way to stem the progression of sarcopenia. Most people lose up to 30% of their muscle mass due to the aging process.
It is important to slow the progression of sarcopenia because muscle mass is directly proportionate to longevity and quality of life. The atrophy of muscle in later life can greatly reduce physical ability and capability for independent living. Significant degradation of muscle tissue commonly leads to frailty-related disability, higher risk of falls, and injuries that seriously affect the health of older populations – not to mention the social costs of health expense, family conjcern and community care.
The graph (above) shows a generalised timeline for the onset and progression of sarcopenia, including the disability threshold.

What are the biological drivers of sarcopenia?
Sarcopenia refers to the degeneration of myofibers or muscle cells. It has complex, multifactorial biological drivers, but primarily involves the interaction between 3 physiological processes: myofiber satellite cells; AMPK and mTOR; and IGF1.

Myofibers and satellite cells.
The nuclei of myofibers (muscle cells) build proteins to induce muscle growth via a process called muscle protein synthesis. Hence, myofibers with a larger number of nuclei have greater potential for growth. Satellite cells, which surround myofibers, proliferate and are activated to fuse with myofibers, thus donating their nuclei to myofibers as an adaptation to resistance exercise. The subsequently increased number of nuclei gives myofibers a greater growth potential. Due to this adaptation, people who undertake resistance exercise have more nuclei in their myofibers on average than untrained individuals. As we age, the number of satellite cells around the myofibers decreases, and they become less responsive to exercise. Hence, less nuclei are donated to the myofiber by satellite cells, thereby reducing the potential for muscle growth.
Satellite cells also express myogenic regulatory factors (MRF) which promote increases in muscle mass. In elderly individuals there are fewer satellite cells and it is more difficult to stimulate them, so it is harder to generate the myogenic factors that contribute to increasing muscle size.

The increased number of nuclei donated by satellite cells to myofibers is also thought to contribute to ‘muscle memory’. Previously trained individuals seem to retain a significant portion of additional nuclei when they cease to train and lose muscle size, and due to having increased nuclei numbers from previous training, they can regain muscle mass more quickly once resuming resistance training compared to previously untrained individuals.

AMPK and mTOR
mTOR (mammalian target of rapamycin) is an intercellular signalling pathway associated with muscle protein synthesis. AMPK (adenosine monophosphate activated protein kinase) is a protein complex activated in response to exercise which downregulates mTOR and its muscle building effects. AMPK increases with age and acts to blunt the muscle growing effects of mTOR, decreasing the rate of muscle protein synthesis and making it harder to grow muscle through resistance training.

IGF-1
IGF-1 (insulin-like growth factor) plays a role in the efficiency of motor neurons, or muscle activating nerves. With decreasing levels of IGF-1 with age there is a decreased ability of the nervous system to activate muscle fibres. Muscle fibres that are insufficiently activated degenerate and die, leading to shrinkage and loss of Type II fibres.
The top image (right) represents muscle innervation in a healthy young adult. All the fibres are well innervated and the red Type II fibres are evenly dispersed throughout the muscle tissue. The image below it represents underactive motor neurons (dotted red) and the consequent loss of Type II fibres. It also shows how Type II fibres become unevenly dispersed in the tissue and grouped together where motor neurons remain active.

Nutrition: dietary protein and muscle protein synthesis.
A leading activator of mTOR is dietary protein; specifically, the amino acid leucine. Leucine enhances mTOR signalling, and therefore, muscle protein synthesis. Because mTOR is blunted by AMPK, particularly in older adults, most recommendations regarding muscle retention and/or growth call for higher protein consumption.

Protein intake timing in conjunction with resistance exercise seems to become more important for older individuals. Recent studies indicate that older adults can significantly enhance muscle protein synthesis by consuming dietary protein immediately after exercise. For most people, about 3 grams of leucine in a meal are needed to optimally stimulate the mTOR pathway for muscle growth, but due to higher levels of AMPK effectively blunting mTOR in the aging, a higher quota of dietary protein is suggested in order to up-regulate mTOR and counteract AMPK’s blunting effect.
The image (left) portrays the integration of dietary protein (leucine) with the mTOR pathway, AMPK, IGF-1 and muscle protein synthesis.

Exercise: the best way to slow down advancing sarcopenia.
Regular resistance training of sufficient intensity with a diet rich in protein is the best way to abate the advancement of sarcopenia.

Seniors CAN gain strength and muscle mass
Older adults who undertake resistance training can make very significant strength gains along with still significant, but smaller, increases in muscle mass. Muscle growth occurs at the cellular level, but strength is enhanced by improved nerve stimulation, movement ability and exercise skill. Due to sarcopenia, it is more difficult for older adults to make muscle cells grow than it is to improve movement skill and nerve stimulation for strength, but older adults can still gain muscle mass, and certainly get much stronger, by undertaking resistance exercise.

There are three fundamental elements to any resistance exercise program:
· Intensity: the weight lifted as a percentage of 1 rep max (1RM). Intensity ensures exercise is strenuous enough to be effective and determines the number of reps that can be done per set
· Set volume: number of sets performed per muscle group per week
· Frequency: number of times a muscle group is trained per week. Frequency is regulated to ensure adequate recovery between bouts of exercise
Tweaking intensity, set volume and frequency is key to creating highly effective resistance exercise programs.

Strength training for seniors

Intensity first
Research shows that intensities >70% 1RM greatly outperforms intensities of <70% for strength gains, and seniors should be lifting between 70-79% 1RM for 7-9 reps per set for strength.
There are no studies on seniors lifting more than 80% 1RM, so we cannot say if higher intensities at lower reps have better or worse strength enhancing effects. However, because very high intensities best recruit the nervous system and Type II muscle fibres, intensities >80% 1RM should probably be programmed periodically for trained seniors.
The available research shows no difference in results between periodising intensities and always training at the same intensity and rep range, but most of the research participants were untrained individuals for whom any training stimulus would produce significant results. For trained individuals, periodising a range of intensities, including very high intensities, would almost certainly outperform always training with the same intensity and rep range.

Set Volume
Because most research participants are untrained, a very low set volume of 4-6 sets per week is shown to be significantly effective. This makes sense considering other research that shows 1 set per week producing strength increases in the untrained. Already trained individuals would very likely need higher set volumes than this to continue to increase strength.
As an individual becomes established in their training, set volume can be increased according to recovery ability. Recovery can be further enhanced with volume deloads (reducing volume for a week) every 4-6 weeks. Deloads are used to dissipate any longer-term accumulation of fatigue.

Frequency
A frequency of twice per week is probably optimal for most older individuals. Twice a week has been shown to outperform 3 times a week in trials. This is consistent with what we know about the recovery needs of older adults. Due to impeded muscle protein synthesis, muscle repair is slower in older folk, so they need more time to recover between bouts. When regulating fatigue from strength training, it is better to use longer recovery times and/or slightly lower set volumes rather than reduce load intensity.

Hypertrophy training for seniors
Hypertrophy (muscle growth) training in older populations is understudied and there is no reliable data. However, the literature that does exist points to a slightly lower dose of exercise than in younger individuals.

Intensity
Intensities between 50-60% of IRM shows the best results for muscle growth in the aged, but this is based on only 2 studies, and another study showed 70-79% having same muscle building effect. It is most likely that periodic changes in intensities and rep ranges along with exercise variation would provide the best muscle building results, erring on the side of slightly less intensity for older individuals than younger.
Seniors probably should not train all the way to muscle failure because that would unnecessarily generate excessive fatigue and make recovery more difficult. However, older individuals would have to regularly train close to failure to adequately stimulate the growth of Type II muscle fibres.

Set volume
Generally speaking, the highest set volume (number of sets per week) an individual can recover from is the ‘sweet spot’ for hypertrophy. A volume deload should be programmed every few weeks to dissipate accumulated fatigue. After a deload, volume can be increased from week to week until the individual nears their recovery threshold, before the next deload.

Frequency
Training muscle groups twice per week outperformed 3 times per week for hypertrophy in older adults. The evidence is scant, but it is congruent with more robust research on strength training and what we know about older people needing more recovery time.

What does all this mean in application?
Older folk will probably get the best strength and muscle gain results by training respective muscle groups twice per week. A twice weekly frequency allows for enough set volume while avoiding excessive fatigue, and enabling adequate time for recovery. New trainees benefit most by learning skilful lifting technique and establishing full range of motion. This also ensures safe, injury free, long-term sustainable training for the future. It is unnecessarily risky for new lifters to train at very high intensities with poor technique, but new trainees will still make significant gains training within the lower range of intensities and set volumes. Once a trainee acquires the exercise skill and mobility to lift at higher intensities safely, periodising a range of intensities (including very high intensities) and rep ranges taken close to muscle failure would optimise ongoing strength and hypertrophy outcomes.
Individualisation is important to exercise programming, and the generalisations made in this article are not universally applicable. The most effective resistance programs are individually tailored based on age, training history, injury history, health concerns, and a multitude of lifestyle factors and preferences.

Concluding points
· Sarcopenia has complex, multifactorial causes and is best attenuated with resistance exercise and appropriate nutrition
· A twice weekly frequency ensures adequate training volume while optimising recovery
· Intensities >70% 1RM are best for strength gains in older adults, and intensities of 50-60% 1RM trained to near failure are best for hypertrophy
· New lifters make fastest progress by establishing full range of motion and skilful exercise technique, and will see remarkable results from lower intensities and training dosages
· Periodising a range of intensities and rep ranges along with exercise variation is best for strength and hypertrophy gains over the long term
· Training is highly individualised and appropriate exercise programs are individually tailored
· This article makes generalisations based on the available literature – it does not make recommendations

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

protein powders. where do you start.What do you use yourself?

The sport supplement industry is pretty much one giant scam, so shopping for supplements is one way to get ripped off. At least we know a protein supplement is effective and not a total sham.

Whey protein would have to to be the best, and no matter which one you get, any gram of whey contains the same amino acids. Trouble is, some unethical producers add fillers and lie about the percentage of protein in a scoop, or you open the bag and find a gigantic scooper, so your bag of powder doesn't last long.

I buy a simple whey protein concentrate from VVA, and have one scoop once a day. Since I have it in a berry and oats smoothy, I only use the strawberry flavour. But they have a ton of different flavours. So you could get banana if you're into banana smoothies, or chocolate if you just loooove chocolate. They have a plain one, but it isn't sweetened, and since it tastes like chalk, useless. The weird ones like cookies and cream are just disgusting, so stick to more traditional flavours. I have been getting get this one https://www.vpa.com.au/collections/p...emium-whey-wpc, but wow, this stuff has gone up about 80% recently! Talk about inflation.

This one is pretty much the same, exactly the same protein profile, but cheaper, so I'm changing to this next time https://www.bulknutrients.com.au/pro...Aj zEEALw_wcB

I haven't tried any vege proteins, but pea protein is OK if that's important, and they have some plant blends, but honestly, looking at the nutrient panels, the amino acid profile is nowhere near the quality ranges of whey protein, so I can only recommend whey protein unless a vegan options is especially important.

They have a plant blend called 'Future Whey' which has a good amino profile, but it comes in a 750g, which makes it more expensive than it looks. Since whey protein is unbeatable and an isolate is only a bit better than a concentrate, I reckon the whey protein concentrate is the best bang for your buck. I buy 5 kg or 5 packets at a time to save a few quid, and at one scoop a day, it lasts me for months!

Ps. don't get tempted by the dozens of protein things they sell, it's all nonsense. There are only 2 effective supplements for weight training. Plain old protein powders and supplemental creatine, but we don't need creatine unless we train like a savage. Regular people only benefit from good nutrition, and a protein powder can help ensure we get the optimal intake. Much better to get it from real food, but a powder can be convenient.