Belief in Jesus Christ

[Miss Hepburn]

Thank you, Amilius...

[Miss Hepburn]

Just thought this needed another read, in case someone missed it.....

Originally Posted by soulfire

I believe that Jesus was a real person and the first to accept God’s Love so Faithfully and Fully he was able to speak with the words of God, Heal with the Love of God and change the perception of God from an angry being into Father.

Jesus moved in love and touched each and every person with it, he gave love in every way possible. This would be difficult to capture on ancient text in a way which could give us a clear image of what he was like. As I call it, the “sci-fi” Jesus was emphasized to stand out, and make the point that Jesus was special. It was taken further to the point of saying Jesus was God.

Jesus never pointed to himself, but God as the source of love, happiness and the freedom the people craved for. It was a spiritual message; most people wanted a “political” messiah to rid the Romans from Jerusalem.

I am a follower of Jesus teaching’s and less the image created by the mind trying to explain spiritual things. Jesus said to seek for God with all your heart and soul. Opening your heart can happen in many ways, not just religion… (ie music, poems, tv) God is of the NOW and is always waiting for us.

The Jesus I know simply wants us to open our hearts to God and all around us. When our will to be the best person we can be, matches God’s Will for us, then the journey begins… Your will and desire drives the capacity of love you can acquire. It becomes greater and greater as your soul drinks from this Love.

[Amilius777]

A thing I would like to bring up is the missing heritage and man of Jesus.

The most liberal atheist scholar Bart Ehrman has said and majority agree with him that Jesus was a historical character.

We forget to separate Jesus the man from Jesus the Messiah.

Jesus the Man was a Jewish rabbi of the first Century who had his own interpretation of the Law and was probably raised by the Essene way of life. He was Essene because of celibacy and deattached to elements of material life: family-children-job-etc". He preached an "end of the world" scenario with him as the King of this new kingdom. Obviously his statements were spiritual and symbolic of the "world to come" or after-life. He saw himself as the futuristic judge of the living and the dead.

The Man was an rabbi, healer, exorcist, and High Priest of a 12-member Coven.

Jesus the Christ is an entirely different subject. The Christ was revealed to those who knew this spirit. Peter says it and calls him the Christ. St. Paul saw the Christ in his visions. The early Church of Paul are followers of Jesus' divinity. The disciples of Peter are those who followed Jesus' humanity and divinity.

By the time Paul's teachings were spread the Romans adopted his writings. WhY? Because Paul mentions a universality of religion and not Hebrew like Peter. Paul won out because the early Church Fathers were Antisemetic. But Paul was trying to stress that what he meant by universality was that the Christ is a universal body and spirit that so happened to be fully manifested in the Jewish Rabbi of the 1st Century- Jesus of Nazareth.

And so the Pagan Christ was created over time and the Jewish Jesus has been long forgotten just because people can not grasp a human being's own potential. That Jesus was a human being who realized his divinity in the "Christ-state" and came as the promised messiah of his people but tried to stress that he Himself as the Messiah is a universal being who is God and is within every soul by birthright.


And then you got Church Fathers making dogmas on the double natures of Yeshua. The changing of his name to Jesus. A New Religion called the Christian Church. The torture and punishment of Jews for not believing in their man made Jesus. But on the other side of it, if it wasn't for the corrupt powers of Europe the Gospels of Jesus would never have spread to help others save themselves from themselves by his example.

We wouldn't have had all these Saint Theresas, St. Anthonys, Francises, Ghandis, Mother Theresas, Meister Eckharts, Thomas Jefferson, Ramakrishnas, and so many brilliant minds and opened hearted individuals who followed the path of Jesus directly or indirectly without the spreading of his life by the Roman Church.

Life is weird. Full of contradictions. Double-sides. Complexities. And Jesus was all this too. He was man full of eccentricity. Contradicted himself time to time because of his enlightened consciousness vs. human consciousness. His double nature as a Man and as the "Christ-consciousness". And a very complex person with purity and faults.

The difference is he knew the Truth and Overcame the world.

I believe in Jesus but also believe in Buddha. The best history of Jesus is in the Urantia book. It is my opinion that the bible has been rewritten too many times to suit the needs of man. Add to the that the gospels left out and we are left with a poor representation. I met a monk here in Thailand when I went to a forest temple that believes Jesus is a fabrication, the story of Horus is almost identical. Another thing he believes is that Buddhism is for adults and other religions are for children.Christianity does not request much effort whereas Buddhism is a lot of work. That being said Jesus did and said many wonderful things. To me his washing of the disciples feet was one of his most expressive actions. It is the heart of the individual and not the dogma associated with any religion that is most important for our spiritual development.

[Amilius777]

The fabrication theories have been around forever. But even the most liberal scholars who do NOT believe in the Gospel have done enough research to conclude that these people were truly or thought they were witnessing these events. The dates, emperors, and names may be wrong because of so many different calenders and mix ups from scribes but the overall tale is essentially the same.

That being said scholars have concluded too that the Gospels of Jesus' family- James, Jude, etc paint not really a different Jesus but what the 'Way' was about. Jesus was originally worshiped in the fashion of the Buddha ironically to your above post. He was seen as the guide between the Creator and the individual. And Son of man and Son of God were merely two sides of Jesus' mission and mantle- nothing to do with him being essentially different than us.

BUT scholars also pin point that the deification of Jesus as some Second God with the Father creating the universe and building a Catholic Church is a complete fabrication that was intended for Antisemitism and collecting Pagan worshipers to the new seat of Rome.

But Jesus in the 1st Century was not worshiped as he is today. Instead if you read the Gospels and Acts Jesus was usually emulated, followed, and worshiped in the sense of being King David's spiritual heir in a celestial kingdom and not a physical one. They were even called the Way not Christians. And the whole divinity behind Jesus is not exclusive but inclusive of all human beings.

Don't confuse the Pagan Christ of Rome which was a fabrication and the Yeshua of the Gospels and Acts.

[in progress]

Originally Posted by Amilius777

Don't confuse the Pagan Christ of Rome which was a fabrication and the Yeshua of the Gospels and Acts.

Could you elaborate?

I've heard there are so many stories from other religions and cultures that are very similar to the Jesus dying on the cross story for sin. The names change but the story is the same. Many believe it relates to astrology/astronomy (astrotheology). There is even a book titled, "The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors: Christianity before Christ". I haven't read it.

I have never heard of the concept of a pagan christ differing from one called Yeshua so I'm curious!

edit: Well duh, I guess you were just elaborating. Could you describe the pagan christ of Rome a bit more?

Originally Posted by boyd8

The best history of Jesus is in the Urantia book. It is my opinion that the bible has been rewritten too many times to suit the needs of man. Add to the that the gospels left out and we are left with a poor representation.

Have you, per chance, read any of the rejected gospels? Most of them aren't very historical at all, and are more concerned with mystical conceptions, rather than the preaching of a 1st century Jewish prophet. I do have a great love for many of the Gospels. But it's widely accepted most of the noncanonical gospels are written much later than the Four - with the possible exception of Thomas, depending whom you ask.

There's also much evidence that the gospels, once composed, were not heavily altered in terms of content. Yes, there are many scribal errors that can sometimes have interesting results. Although saying "rewritten" in the sense of someone sitting down and thinking to himself "hey, I think Mark needs to be redone from scratch" (funnily enough though, the ending of Mark is a later addition. Someone didn't think it was appropriate for the tomb to just be empty, without a Risen Christ).

I met a monk here in Thailand when I went to a forest temple that believes Jesus is a fabrication, the story of Horus is almost identical. Another thing he believes is that Buddhism is for adults and other religions are for children.

Monks can be wrong. No serious scholar rejects the existence of a person named Jesus who performed healing and exorcised people in 1st century Galilee. The only major proponent of it, Robert Price, mostly adheres to his hypothesis, because he thinks people take it for granted that Jesus existed.

And no, the story of Jesus and Horus is not similar in any substantial way. It's a widespread piece of misinformation that is repeated, because many lack knowledge of Egyptian religion, and are content to accept anything they're told.

A Buddhist would have a big investment in making his religion "for adults". No surprise there.

Christianity does not request much effort whereas Buddhism is a lot of work.

A unfair and untrue generalization. Yes, many Christians are simply cultural Xtians, without any real passion or connection with the Christian message. But there are serious Christians - and taking up your own cross is hardly a thing for layabouts or the weak of heart.

That being said Jesus did and said many wonderful things. To me his washing of the disciples feet was one of his most expressive actions. It is the heart of the individual and not the dogma associated with any religion that is most important for our spiritual development.

I agree. It is important to be able to cut through the sophistry of convoluted theory and dogma from time to time. And see things clearly and realistically. Beliefs are nice, but one shouldn't be rewarded simply for having them. If a tree doesn't bear fruit it is felled and thrown into the fire.

[Amilius777]

Thank you Animus! A lot of young spiritualists do not know this info. I thought the same stuff about the Gospels until I read the works of so many scholars and enlightened myself with reality.

I think people tend to run to monks, gurus, psychics, etc to get answers. But history can be one of the greatest lessons. I learned this the hard way In-Progress! I ran from book to book, guru to guru, psychic to psychic until I read the actual history of everything.

There are many books that try to compare the virgin birth-crucifixion-resurrection of Jesus to many pagan beliefs. They are all false. Horus, Krishna, Osirius, Mithras, and many more are NOT identical to Jesus in any way except maybe they are all shepherds and are "Sun-Gods". But Moses was also a shepherd. It is all B/S.

The Four Gospels may contradict small happenings of Jesus but all four agree that Jesus was the Messiah, he was of divine nature and human nature, the Deity dwelt within him in the fullness, he suffered the sins/errors of others, and was resurrected by God because he overcame error and death.

After this the Roman Church plugged so many pagan ideas into the story and became the Western and Eastern Churches.

Examples: Jesus didn't come to start a new religion.

He was a conservative Jew- possibly Essene- and as a Rabbi he had his own interpretation of the Scriptures- which was God's interpretation.

Jesus was not born during December as the Sun Gods.

Jesus was probably not killed in the Spring during Passover- these were allusions to the New Passover in Jesus.

Majority of these doctrines were aimed towards antisemitism and converting the pagans to create a Holy Roman Empire- which they did!

Jesus left only Peter as his heir after his deep realization of Jesus' divine nature. This means only those who realize for themselves the divinity in Jesus by spiritual perception can be heirs of Jesus- not by Apostolic succession nor being a scribe of the Gospels.

Mother Theresa is more the heir to Jesus than Pope Benedict XVI!!!!!!!!

The Southern Judeans were the ones who rejected Jesus, but the rest of Palestine didn't. This was poorly translated into "the Jews" by later scribes.

Caiaphas and his band of Pharisees were such a small portion who hated Jesus. There were 70,000 members of the Congregation. Caiaphas and crew was an extremely small margin.

Judas didn't betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver because he was "Jewish" and Jews like money. NO! That was another antisemitic explanation in the early Church. Put two and two together. Judas was of Judea. These southern Hebrews were rich, powerful, and higher class. Jesus destroyed a bit of their business in the Temple when he trashed it! You don't think Judas might have suffered this short financial issue? And he was part of the Zealot movement who were angry with Jesus' view as the savior. They wanted him to pick up a sword and fight.

The Dogmatic Trinity was created later. But the Trinity is older than Roman Catholicism. Egyptians, Hindus, Buddhists etc have a trinity. God has three aspects. One of them is the Son or "S-U-N" which Jesus at times calls himself - or the Logos. But the Jews were strict monotheists and so was Jesus. Jesus meant that the "Son aspect" had incarnated within him during his human life. The Son is the aspect which reveals God's spirit to men. He made differences between Son of Man (his human limited nature as the Messiah) and the Son of God (his divine omnipresent nature as the Logos). The latter can be interpreted exclusively for the entity Jesus or anyone who makes his will one with God. This is left up for your own personal view.

Jesus gave all credit to the One God throughout his life even when he spoke of the three- Father, Son, Holy Ghost. And so Jesus was a strict monotheist. He called the One God his Father.




These are few examples.

[Morpheus]

However....

The Old Testament prophecies, which many forget, or ignore, abound with pointing towards the coming Messiah.
From Genesis onward.

With study and meditation, it becomes clear that Jesus confirmed the earlier Far Eastern teachings, especially of, "Maya", the illusory aspect of the material world, in time and space.
With respect to miracles, and effectiveness of prayer. His teachings thereof.

Which is confirmed today in Science.
"Reality is an illusion, albeit a very persistant one." - Einstein

Consider the beginnings of the Gospels also, with respect to the wise men from the East.


Yes, Jesus referred to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and also proclaimed that He was the, "Alpha and Omega", the beginning and the end.
Everything which has a beginning, has an end. But, there is that which has no beginning, and no end.

Which Buddha also spoke of.

Throughout the history and the ages of the Biblical writings, "Stars", have represented both Angels, and people alike.
Jesus equated people with the angels, and, evidence bears out that humanity is part of the fallen angelic, apart from time and space.
Which is our true origin, apart from time.

He states in Revelation,
"I am the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star".
In Malachi in the Old Testament, He is referred to as the, "Sun of Righteousnness", Who is to appear, "with Healing in His Wings." Which has been the case to many through the ages.

The Good Shepherd, who leaves the flock to seek and find that which had gone astray.

Likewise, the system and the method of reconciliation with God, namely Atonement, began in Genesis we see, (Cain and Able)...
and is culminated in Christ who is called, "The Lamb Who was slain from the beginning of the world". (John the Baptist), and...
"The Lamb of God".

Also the, "Capstone", as well as the very Cornerstone of Faith.
God generally, in the Old Testament, is called, "Savior"...
"The Rock" , and, "A Firm Foundation". upon which we can rest our faith and our eternal hope, which is sure.

Not only did Christ Himself declare His purpose regarding His destined atonement, but, we have the various prophecies through the ages of the writings to consider.

So, bottom line, you have the Old Testament scriptures and prophecies to consider, much of which is confirmed by the found artifacts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Daniel 7:13 is very specific concerning the coming Messiah, in prophecy.
As are statements in Isaiah. Both written ages prior to His birth.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

Daniel 7:13
King James Bible
Cambridge Edition

Daniel 12:3

"And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above;
and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever."

(The Archangel Gabriel, speaking to the prophet Daniel)

www.biblecc.com

I personally dont believe in Jesus Christ because of all that goes along with it. What really turns me off is people will tell you, you are going to hell and eternal damnation if you do not accept jesus as your lord and savior. But the thing is these same people who accept jesus as there lord and savior are some of the most messed up people I know. Words mean nothing to me. If people would speak threw there actions and then say they live a morale and pure life threw jesus christ people would be more inclined to believe. You can preach about how jesus is your lord and savior and how great he is and then go around and rape little kids or act in a manor that contradicts what you say. What you say and how you act need to be in unison or people see a liar. The key in my opinon to reaching god is threw your self. According to the bible if you accept jesus as your lord and savior you go to heaven. That does not sit well in my heart. I understand everybody makes mistakes and I believe anybody can be forgiven. But you need to honestly in your heart feel bad about what you did, and repent for your sins. You cant just say "I believe in jesus" and be accepted in to heaven. Words mean nothing. You have to feel and actually act in a certain manner to show sincerity. Also look at all the wars which have been started and all the people who have died in the name of "christ". Then you have the Jesus freaks running around who say the bible is the word of the god and that it is fact. You talk to these people and when you tell them facts that have been scientifically proven, there rebuttal is its not in the bible so it is wrong. I believe if you follow organized religion or you read the bible and say its the literal word of god instead of looking at the symbolic meaning. It puts you in a paradigm that is not conducive to true spiritual growth or actual free thought. I think religion is a form of population growth, which uses the fear of going to hell and the fear of the end of the world to bend people to there will. Have you noticed that the end of the world has been right around the corner for two thousand years. It seems everyday there is a new pastor with a revelation that the end of the world is gonna be tomorrow or the next day. Fear keeps people in there little box of thinking. In my opinion, true spiritual growth can not happen while a person still harbors unwarranted fears(the fear the church indoctrinates in people)

(edited by SF staff)