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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Christianity

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  #11  
Old 11-12-2019, 05:34 PM
zastrakoza zastrakoza is offline
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Since this is the most interesting topic I’ve seen to date, I’d like to toss out my perspective for your consideration and review.

Heaven is tied to the resurrection, but I disagree with your statements referencing the physical body. Logically, there must be a relationship between the body that dies and the one resurrected or it wouldn’t be a resurrection, but it does not have to be physical. In order to understand what is resurrected, we must first understand what is death. Additionally, Jesus was a Jew and taught the meaning of the old testament scriptures in the temples. To understand the new testament teachings, we must first understand what from the old testament is being explained. The Jews commonly believed in resurrection and the coming of the Messiah who would establish the (Jewish) kingdom. So what scriptures are supporting the idea of resurrection and the kingdom of Heaven in the old testament?

Heaven is the land promised to Abraham’s seed. The death is the death of the first born, who is resurrected as the second son. The promise to the first (the inheritance) is given to the second heir. And Abraham died before entering the promised land; It was his minister Joshua who led them. Abraham signifying the first born (the law) and Joshua the second son (love). What died is the carnal aspect of the law (the implementation) and what is raised up is the true spiritual law (the body of Christ). This story is told over and over from different views and Jesus’ parables shed light on the ancient allegories. The fact that the old testament stories are allegories is explained in Hebrews 11.

Heaven is not a physical land or kingdom. Hebrew 11:13-16

The Kingdom of Heaven was openly established by the Messiah, as he publicly taught the time of the anticipated everlasting kingdom was at hand. Matthew 4:17

But it is like giving up all that you possess to gain something of far greater value. We have to die to self to be resurrected in Christ, who is the Kingdom of Heaven. That where he is, we may be also as one. Matthew 13, john 17:24

We live in the kingdom of heaven now under the rule of the Christ. For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched… but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem… Hebrews 12:18
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  #12  
Old 11-12-2019, 05:57 PM
sky123 sky123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zastrakoza
Since this is the most interesting topic I’ve seen to date, I’d like to toss out my perspective for your consideration and review.

Heaven is tied to the resurrection, but I disagree with your statements referencing the physical body. Logically, there must be a relationship between the body that dies and the one resurrected or it wouldn’t be a resurrection, but it does not have to be physical. In order to understand what is resurrected, we must first understand what is death. Additionally, Jesus was a Jew and taught the meaning of the old testament scriptures in the temples. To understand the new testament teachings, we must first understand what from the old testament is being explained. The Jews commonly believed in resurrection and the coming of the Messiah who would establish the (Jewish) kingdom. So what scriptures are supporting the idea of resurrection and the kingdom of Heaven in the old testament?

Heaven is the land promised to Abraham’s seed. The death is the death of the first born, who is resurrected as the second son. The promise to the first (the inheritance) is given to the second heir. And Abraham died before entering the promised land; It was his minister Joshua who led them. Abraham signifying the first born (the law) and Joshua the second son (love). What died is the carnal aspect of the law (the implementation) and what is raised up is the true spiritual law (the body of Christ). This story is told over and over from different views and Jesus’ parables shed light on the ancient allegories. The fact that the old testament stories are allegories is explained in Hebrews 11.

Heaven is not a physical land or kingdom. Hebrew 11:13-16

The Kingdom of Heaven was openly established by the Messiah, as he publicly taught the time of the anticipated everlasting kingdom was at hand. Matthew 4:17

But it is like giving up all that you possess to gain something of far greater value. We have to die to self to be resurrected in Christ, who is the Kingdom of Heaven. That where he is, we may be also as one. Matthew 13, john 17:24

We live in the kingdom of heaven now under the rule of the Christ. For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched… but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem… Hebrews 12:18




' but I disagree with your statements referencing the physical body.'


So do I but that's what some Christians believe so I just quoted what I had read. Heaven in my understanding is a state of mind.
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  #13  
Old 11-12-2019, 06:14 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zastrakoza
Since this is the most interesting topic I’ve seen to date, I’d like to toss out my perspective for your consideration and review.

Heaven is tied to the resurrection, but I disagree with your statements referencing the physical body. Logically, there must be a relationship between the body that dies and the one resurrected or it wouldn’t be a resurrection, but it does not have to be physical. In order to understand what is resurrected, we must first understand what is death. Additionally, Jesus was a Jew and taught the meaning of the old testament scriptures in the temples. To understand the new testament teachings, we must first understand what from the old testament is being explained. The Jews commonly believed in resurrection and the coming of the Messiah who would establish the (Jewish) kingdom. So what scriptures are supporting the idea of resurrection and the kingdom of Heaven in the old testament?

Heaven is the land promised to Abraham’s seed. The death is the death of the first born, who is resurrected as the second son. The promise to the first (the inheritance) is given to the second heir. And Abraham died before entering the promised land; It was his minister Joshua who led them. Abraham signifying the first born (the law) and Joshua the second son (love). What died is the carnal aspect of the law (the implementation) and what is raised up is the true spiritual law (the body of Christ). This story is told over and over from different views and Jesus’ parables shed light on the ancient allegories. The fact that the old testament stories are allegories is explained in Hebrews 11.

Heaven is not a physical land or kingdom. Hebrew 11:13-16

The Kingdom of Heaven was openly established by the Messiah, as he publicly taught the time of the anticipated everlasting kingdom was at hand. Matthew 4:17

But it is like giving up all that you possess to gain something of far greater value. We have to die to self to be resurrected in Christ, who is the Kingdom of Heaven. That where he is, we may be also as one. Matthew 13, john 17:24

We live in the kingdom of heaven now under the rule of the Christ. For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched… but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem… Hebrews 12:18
VERY WELL DONE.

I am curious, how much time did you spend writing this?
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     whereas suffering is caused by a distorted mind.

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  #14  
Old 11-12-2019, 08:30 PM
zastrakoza zastrakoza is offline
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Thank you. I had to do some research to refresh my memory of the bible. And I'm a slow writer so maybe an hour. I enjoyed it tho.

It has been over 20 years since I participated in a forum like this. Having escaped fundamentalism, I am sorry for those stuck in it. Nice to have a different crowd out there these days!
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  #15  
Old 13-12-2019, 05:48 PM
Aknaton Aknaton is offline
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I too want to know where heaven is :)
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Spare me the religious names, I'm just a friend of Jesus.
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  #16  
Old 13-12-2019, 06:22 PM
Molearner Molearner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zastrakoza
We live in the kingdom of heaven now under the rule of the Christ. For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched… but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem… Hebrews 12:18

zastrakoza.

In your otherwise excellent posting I would disagree with this concluding statement. Jesus clearly said...."My kingdom is not of this world". If you read the following verses of Hebrews 12:18.....I see a couple of red flags. ( btw....you actually quoted v. 22 and not verse 18) v. 22 continued....'thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly'? If this had been an actual physical location this must certainly would not be the only mention of it in scripture. Secondly....v.23.....'to the spirits of righteous men made perfect'...….to perceive the spirits as such they would have to be in the spiritual rather than the material world.
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  #17  
Old 13-12-2019, 11:00 PM
zastrakoza zastrakoza is offline
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Molerner, thanks for the correction. Sorry to be confusing. I agree with you! Not physical! :P
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  #18  
Old 14-12-2019, 01:05 AM
Molearner Molearner is offline
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by zastrakoza
Molerner, thanks for the correction. Sorry to be confusing. I agree with you! Not physical! :P

zastrakoza,

You are to be admired greatly for accepting correction. It will give validity to your postings because it is a demonstration of being open-minded. Please continue posting...….
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  #19  
Old 14-12-2019, 03:13 AM
neil neil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molearner
zastrakoza.

In your otherwise excellent posting I would disagree with this concluding statement. Jesus clearly said...."My kingdom is not of this world". If you read the following verses of Hebrews 12:18.....I see a couple of red flags. ( btw....you actually quoted v. 22 and not verse 18) v. 22 continued....'thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly'? If this had been an actual physical location this must certainly would not be the only mention of it in scripture. Secondly....v.23.....'to the spirits of righteous men made perfect'...….to perceive the spirits as such they would have to be in the spiritual rather than the material world.

Gleaned from real life experiences, my understanding is that there is only one universe, of which is the spiritual.
And all things reside within the one single spiritual universe. Everything that is known & refered to as the physical, is in fact constructed from the Invisible spiritual matter of the spiritual universe.

All galaxies and their contents, including the physical fleshly human body that we are connected to, all reside within the spiritual universe.

All of it..galaxies, spiritual Heavens & the Holy Kingdoms etc are all located within the same one & only singular spiritual realm/universe. Including all angelic persons, spiritual persons now without the fleshly human body & also we the spiritual beings whom are still connected to the Earthly flesh body & living on this planet.

It is all located side by side, although many untold light years apart. And of course the Holy Kingdoms are not of this world/planet, because the many mansions of the Holy Kingdoms are a location unto itself, elsewhere within the body of the Heavenly Father Christ entity.
The many mansions of the Holy Kingdom are said to be a very abundant & wonderfuly beautiful & magical continuous experience & way of living.

A spiritual person who resides on "say" the planet Earth, is simply an invisible Soul being connected to a flesh body & of whom is enmeshed within that flesh body. that invisible Soul'self also at the same time does emanate a less dense yet visible spiritual body.
And when that person effects an out of body experience, that invisible soul "person" simply drifts out & away from the flesh body. & can then move freely throughout the singular spiritual universe. & when that Earthling effects the out of body experience, that person has not entered another dimension or realm. That person has simply moved away from their earthly physical flesh body, & is still in the same location realm of the single spiritual universe.

You said this in your post...QUOTE..."to perceive the spirits as such they would have to be in the spiritual rather than the material world"....UNQUOTE.
Every Soul created by the Christ entity, is an invisible entity...& whether we are on Earth connected to flesh or no longer connected to flesh & no longer of a planetary system ie:- a spirit, we are all known as "mankind" untill such that a person/soul being has been transformed into the very essence & likeness of the Christ entity...Or refered to as Angelic, all Holy, all loving & all merciful.

Scripture poorly alludes to the above & is found wanting. All things reside within the body of the Heavenly Father Christ entity. And there is only one Heavenly Father, one universe, one realm but all of varying densities.

Effect an out of body experience, and then simply travel towards the natural spiritual Heavens ie:-the summerlands, and stay as long as you choose, however as per usual & for many untold thousands of Earth years, evil minded negative "entities/persons" will endeavor to turn you back towards the earth. However if one were to arrive there whilst still connected to their physical flesh body which would obviously be back on Earth. As your soul qualities grow more loving you can traverse/travel on & into locations of more love & beauty & abundance.
Or follow in the path of Jesus and many others, & you can eventually enter into the many mansions of the Holy Kingdoms, whilst still connected to the flesh.
All is located within the body of the Heavenly Father Christ entity. and all are side by side, although many light years seperates us here on Earth from the spiritual Heavens & the very abundant Holy Kingdoms.

Scripture also poorly alludes to the fact of evil negative influences here on Earth. And the negative influences are rife & at play in & around all of us, moment by moment, and those negative influences will do anything from keeping truth from us. & the negative influences employ all manner of false and misleading beliefs/concepts of many different realms & dimentions. Through visions, dreams communications & the creation of false scenarios that people are experiencing during out of body experiences. these false concepts are & have been enstilled in the thoughts of earthly persons for many untold thousands of years. These false concepts are simple to implement & grow more absurd moment by moment. & earthlings swallow it all hook line & sinker. Because we are blind to these negative influences. Just as the Earthly first Parents were many thousands of Earth years ago.

There are untold numbers of Earthlings experiencing OBE's and of whom are kept unlovingly busy in false out of body senarios, fighting thought forms of demons, shadow beings, aliens, etc etc etc, in make believe astral locations of which are utilized to keep Earthlings from making their way freely to the spiritual Heavens of which all persons are welcome & capable of entering therein.

Biblical scripture poorly alludes to all of the above, "believe it or not".
And I am led to believe that Heaven is a way of being and also a very wonderouse location.
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  #20  
Old 14-12-2019, 04:30 PM
zastrakoza zastrakoza is offline
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Hi Neil,

Thank you for posting your perspective. Can you provide some additional clarification on the idea of side by side (simultaneous?) and lightyears away? I am not sure what you mean.

Also I am curious as the origin of the evil influences? Would you expound?

The biblical scriptures were written to the earthlings at the end of a specified age and therefore are limited in many respects (although alluding to much more). And there is an age between us and them. We have access to much more information in accordance with the spiritual evolution of mankind.

Z
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