Atheism is a Religion

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The biggest problem is the number of different schools with very different beliefs. So for Advaita Vedanta it's 'God within', which is similar to the Gnostics. We are Atman and therefore Brahman and there's no duality. Another school advocates 'God without' and the Atman is not 'in the body' it's 'up there', so it's more equivalent to Higher Self. Jung's Self is Advaita Vedanta's Atman while Jung's ego is Ahamkara.

I'm not saying I'm human having a spiritual experience. I'm saying I'm Spirit (Atman/Brahman) having a human experience. It's an experience beyond psychology, religion, spirituality, philosophy, intellect, memory, emotion, etc... though since it's mediated through mind it can only be conveyed by those means. It's nowhere near as intense as it was in October of 2019 when loosely speaking it was the waking equivalent of a lucid dream, but it's still there and especially when I pay attention.

Yes, I'm very familiar with Orch-OR. Check out my Consciousness playlist (YouTube link in my sig). Whether it's valid I have no clue but I suppose it's a possible candidate for the Advaita position that Consciousness is non-local and all there is and what we experience as being conscious is simply an illumination of our quantum computing brain by It and as mediated by the quantum wave function. So perhaps the quantum wave function is the first manifestation of the Unmanifest. An appearance of and within the Unified Field.

Here's the playlist link: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...XfywQvhBzzdrQA

You might find these three of particular interest.

The Primacy of Consciousness - Peter Russell https://youtu.be/-d4ugppcRUE?list=PL...XfywQvhBzzdrQA

Peter Russell proposes that mind is more fundamental than matter. He explores the problems science has explaining consciousness and argues that consciousness is not created by the brain, but is inherent in all beings.

Consciousness, a Quantum Physics Perspective https://youtu.be/RJ4Uv-5_3VM?list=PL...XfywQvhBzzdrQA

Renowned quantum physicist, John Hagelin (PhD, Harvard), presents the thesis that consciousness is a unified field that contains nature's programming code and transcending through meditation is a pathway to hack / access consciousness.

Dr. Stuart Hameroff: Consciousness is More than Computation! https://youtu.be/YpUVot-4GPM?list=PL...XfywQvhBzzdrQA

Dr. Stuart Hameroff is a Professor of Anesthesiology and Psychology, and Director of the Center for Consciousness Studies at the University of Arizona. Together with British quantum physicist Sir Roger Penrose, Hameroff is the co-author of the controversial Orch OR model of consciousness.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I'm not saying I'm human having a spiritual experience. I'm saying I'm Spirit (Atman/Brahman) having a human experience. It's an experience beyond psychology, religion, spirituality, philosophy, intellect, memory, emotion, etc... though since it's mediated through mind it can only be conveyed by those means. It's nowhere near as intense as it was in October of 2019 when loosely speaking it was the waking equivalent of a lucid dream, but it's still there and especially when I pay attention.

I'm into photography and that has taught me something of Spirituality. I'm guided by intuition most times and I don't know where I'm going until I head out of town, but other days I have very specific plans. The first thing I do is dump my rucksack just witness creation, although that thought is out of my mind. It's enough to just be there. I'll get my binoculars out perhaps or my phone because it's a good tool to frame and compose shots. I'll see it through my eyes, I'll see it through the lens and when I get home I'll look at it on the screen. I am a human having a Spiritual Journey, I am Atman/Spirit having a human Journey and I am always right here, right now and there is simply existence itself.

Are you a samurai thinking you are a butterfly or are you a butterfly thinking you are a samurai?

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Yes, I'm very familiar with Orch-OR. Check out my Consciousness playlist (YouTube link in my sig). Whether it's valid I have no clue but I suppose it's a possible candidate for the Advaita position that Consciousness is non-local and all there is and what we experience as being conscious is simply an illumination of our quantum computing brain by It and as mediated by the quantum wave function. So perhaps the quantum wave function is the first manifestation of the Unmanifest.

I know you're familiar with it, which is why I didn't see any reason for saying much more. And I'll have a look through your list, thank you. I've already seen some of it but it was a while ago. As far as this goes science is still in daipers and I think it's going to be a long time before we're familiar enough with it, but for me it becomes interesting when you put it in terms of religion/philosophy. Did those ancients understand quantum mechanics? The other question is, were they taught by a previous advanced civilisation? There's evidence to say that is the case.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Are you a samurai thinking you are a butterfly or are you a butterfly thinking you are a samurai?

Thinking is a trap and that's what all the meditation practices are designed to help overcome.

[psychoslice]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I find it interesting because it's mind-fodder, now that there's no 'looking for me' it needs its fix sometimes.

I agree, there is nothing like a little fix sometimes, oh, pub day tomorrow.

[winter light]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

... Alan Watts had a discussion with Jung and according to Alan Watts, Jung reminded him that he is a Westerner - Alan Watts is also a scholar of Eastern religion/philosophy. In the translation of any Sanskrit text, there are two 'translations' - one of the language itself and one of the consciousness that the language is a reflection of. While Jung was a scholar of Eastern religion/philosophy he was a scientist and the co-founder of a new branch of science, and had to 'adjust' Eastern consciousness to be compatible with the Western mind. If you keep each in their own context it makes sense.

There also seem to be two 'layers' of consciousness depending on what you read. There is the "I"-consciousness of the Ahamkara and another layer of consciousness above that - that of the Atman. That maker sense to me because it fits with my own experiences, in that every time I think I have consciousness nailed it moves the goalposts. In the parallel with Jung, obviously there is the consciousness of the ego that we all know and love, but there is also consciousness with the self in that there is the unconscious to bring into that equation. I've always wondered what the self is conscious of but Jung isn't too clear on that. But the consciousness of the self encompassing both the conscious of the ego and the unconscious makes sense. ...

Likewise to what Jung said regarding two translations of the east. Similarly, it was like there were two translations of Jung's descriptions of experience. One as a model with lots of terminology, and the other as a discipline of awareness and personal growth through mystical experiences.

The terminology of Jung is hard for me to fathom. Even Jung after seeing all of the mental juggling people did in response to his models, he was rumored to have said something like,"Thank God I am Jung and not a Jungian". And if you all can somehow take all of the complexities of eastern teachings which I likewise find mind boggling, and then are able to compare with Jung's models. Well good luck I hope you can manage and I am having a hard time keeping up. Nevertheless ...

From the practice end of things I think Jung is very different from the eastern teachings. My extremely crude summary of the eastern teachings, based on how I see people promoting them, seems to come down to denial of the world. Either the world as illusion or the world as irrelevant in comparison to some ultimate divinity of gods and people. Or in comparison to some ultimate future bliss that one chases.

That world denial has the side effect of hollowing out one to the present moment and living as a non-attached shell. I'm glad they also have devotional practices to counter this with prayer or art or music or dance that grounds one back to the earth. Or else all would be lost. But the intellectuals seem to dismiss this as some sort of lesser path.

Even more strange is that the eastern teachings always stressing ultimate realities have a huge blind spot that Watts pointed out to me. He said we make "nets" to capture the reality, and then get trapped in reaction to the nets instead of actually living in the real reality. To me that is an even simpler and better description than I see from many eastern teachers. Going in never-ending mental circles trying to capture endless subtleties while claiming that life is somehow simple, because it is all illusion.

Jung on the other hand promoted a kind of personal growth that I never see from the eastern teachings. It was all about exploring life of synchronicity as the inner world meeting the outer world. Observing with fascination the interplay between them. Where everything has personal meaning. Not as a bunch of ideas but as living in relationship to a living reality. The life as a dream and the dreams reflecting life all become an integrated whole.

And the archetypes are all within you. The kingdom of heaven within. The psychology of a dream world. Not as separate gods but as parts of yourself to embrace and relate to. Or not, dismiss them if you like, but those inner voices will keep calling until they are acknowledged.

[pixiedust]

Originally Posted by winter light

Likewise to what Jung said regarding two translations of the east. Similarly, it was like there were two translations of Jung's descriptions of experience. One as a model with lots of terminology, and the other as a discipline of awareness and personal growth through mystical experiences.

The terminology of Jung is hard for me to fathom. Even Jung after seeing all of the mental juggling people did in response to his models, he was rumored to have said something like,"Thank God I am Jung and not a Jungian". And if you all can somehow take all of the complexities of eastern teachings which I likewise find mind boggling, and then are able to compare with Jung's models. Well good luck I hope you can manage and I am having a hard time keeping up. Nevertheless ...

From the practice end of things I think Jung is very different from the eastern teachings. My extremely crude summary of the eastern teachings, based on how I see people promoting them, seems to come down to denial of the world. Either the world as illusion or the world as irrelevant in comparison to some ultimate divinity of gods and people. Or in comparison to some ultimate future bliss that one chases.

That world denial has the side effect of hollowing out one to the present moment and living as a non-attached shell. I'm glad they also have devotional practices to counter this with prayer or art or music or dance that grounds one back to the earth. Or else all would be lost. But the intellectuals seem to dismiss this as some sort of lesser path.

Even more strange is that the eastern teachings always stressing ultimate realities have a huge blind spot that Watts pointed out to me. He said we make "nets" to capture the reality, and then get trapped in reaction to the nets instead of actually living in the real reality. To me that is an even simpler and better description than I see from many eastern teachers. Going in never-ending mental circles trying to capture endless subtleties while claiming that life is somehow simple, because it is all illusion.

Jung on the other hand promoted a kind of personal growth that I never see from the eastern teachings. It was all about exploring life of synchronicity as the inner world meeting the outer world. Observing with fascination the interplay between them. Where everything has personal meaning. Not as a bunch of ideas but as living in relationship to a living reality. The life as a dream and the dreams reflecting life all become an integrated whole.

And the archetypes are all within you. The kingdom of heaven within. The psychology of a dream world. Not as separate gods but as parts of yourself to embrace and relate to. Or not, dismiss them if you like, but those inner voices will keep calling until they are acknowledged.

What a strange understanding of Eastern religions...

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Thinking is a trap and that's what all the meditation practices are designed to help overcome.

"Whenever we give up, leave behind, and forget too much there is always the danger that the things we have neglected will return with added force."
Carl Jung

So, samurai it is then?

Originally Posted by psychoslice

I agree, there is nothing like a little fix sometimes, oh, pub day tomorrow.

Camera, lensball and more landscape than I know what to do with I think. But for the first hour or so I can leave thinking behind for a while, I think that will be good.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

"Whenever we give up, leave behind, and forget too much there is always the danger
that the things we have neglected will return with added force."
Carl Jung

Well, I certainly disagree with that!
There is not 'always' that danger.
If I give up on being angry or even trying to control a family member, or to accomplish something I just can not -
I can leave it behind and forget about it...that's called forgiving, moving on,
possibly surrendering to what is,
winning a battle with the ego that loves to hang onto things., practicing detachment...Christians could call it overcoming.

But therapists come from a 'their' method. They believe ya gotta analyze things to death, (26 yrs living with 2).
This is their model; their belief system.
Sure, figure out things, forgive, drop it ...and be free of it..see it for what it is...another obstacle to peace you
have gotten over. Yay!
If it rears it's head again a decade later, oh well.
Now you know what it is...overcome it again...it's way easier to laugh it.

But, of course I know what Carl is saying ---sweeping issues under the carpet is not great. Consciously deal with them.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

"Whenever we give up, leave behind, and forget too much there is always the danger that the things we have neglected will return with added force."
Carl Jung

So, samurai it is then?

At this moment I feel like a butterfly being ginsu'd by a samurai, LOL!

The past few days I've been working on a rather intractable bug (really a major design flaw) buried deep in the bowels of a 30+ year old mess of a spaghetti coded program. I spent 17 hours on it yesterday, only giving up at half past midnight because my last test run was competing against nightly production and system backups and was getting very little CPU. So I set my alarm for 5 AM, actually got up at 4:45 AM, logged on to check the results and it's still spinning its wheels and by the displays not nearly through processing. Ouch!!!

To make matters worse I go on-call tomorrow at 8 AM for a week and the past couple of weeks have been quite a bit above average with after hour pages due to a lot of new stuff recently moved to production.

So yeah, I feel a little sliced and diced this morning.