Is impermanence permanent or impermanent?

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

... is not limited, and that is Consciousness, just not in the sense most understand It.

Are you talking about a changing consciousness?

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

Are you talking about a changing consciousness?

Mind changes, not consciousness.

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Mind changes, not consciousness.

This is so mindblowing and also very admirable that you can confidently say this.

How is consciousness able to even become aware of the changing mind, if it itself cannot or does not change? How can it unchangingly become aware of change?

It seems like there needs to be some kind of interface, but if the consciousness does not change, how can it interface between the unchanging and changing?

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

How is consciousness able to even become aware of the changing mind, if it itself cannot or does not change? How can it unchangingly become aware of change?

Everything I say here is of mind, however that knowing of mind is illumined by That which is unchanging. Furthermore mind is an appearance of That. This is a paradox mind simply cannot comprehend. In effect it's the Subject appearing as Its own object, creating a sense of separation.

The Mandukya Upanishad gets at it with the Fourth (Turiya, Chit, Consciousness). Turiya is the background that underlies and pervades the three states of mind: waking, dreaming, and dreamless deep sleep. We usually call these states of consciousness, not mind but in reality it's Consciousness (Turiya, Chit) reflected in mind, and ego (Ahamkara) assigns it to itself, saying "I am conscious". From the Advaita perspective that is the illusion.

Advaita will say by the very fact you know you slept like a log indicates you are aware even in deep and dreamless sleep, however it's not the "you" of the small and separate ego-self. It's the "You" that is in fact Turiya (AKA Chit, Atman, Brahman, Source).

So that's my philosophical basis with a bit of examining the experience of deep dreamless sleep.

There's another experience I have on rare occasion during effortless meditation when the timer goes off and to mind it seems like the sitting just started. From mind's perspective it's like a gap between the last memory from the beginning of the sitting until the timer goes off, however there's a "knowing" I was there and aware the entire time. This is really hard to explain because it seems to be an informing of mind after the fact. An informing of and by That timeless and unchanging serenity.

But even this isn't really pure consciousness because mind is actually still there but in it's causal state. Think of it as the seed of mind with all the potentiality of the other two mind states (waking & dreaming). It's a pointer.

The more dramatic experience is what Rupert Spira refers to as Lucid Waking and that was beyond mind-blowing. It's one thing to have a lucid dream where you realize you aren't a little dream body but the entirety of the dream and something fantastically different to have a similar experience while awake, that you aren't the mind or body but all of existence and everything Shines with the Light of Pure Knowing. It was palpable and undeniable and more real than what I had previously considered reality.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

How is consciousness able to even become aware of the changing mind, if it itself cannot or does not change? How can it unchangingly become aware of change?

We recognise change from a point of stillness. Without a point of stillness could we ever recognise change? There would just be continual change without a stable point of reference.

Using the image of a rotating wheel, the wheel rotates around a point of stillness. The rotating wheel is the changing mind, the point of stillness at the centre is unchanging consciousness. If we identify with the wheel then all we know is movement. Resting in the centre we can observe the movements of the wheel while being still.

Peace

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

... In effect it's the Subject appearing as Its own object, creating a sense of separation...
... The Mandukya Upanishad...

Thanks, this is the most valuable knowledge that I can think of.
And the passion and purity of the experience you shared is real.

I feel like you are transcending time, and I have experienced a little bit of that from a different point of view, because maybe we are getting ready to experience a higher dimension than time. And that does require me personally to realise the illusion of the ego before it occurs, as you mentioned it.

In my experience of the dimension where it is timeless eternal and infinite, the mind can still make judgements about it, because there may not be any human beings there, except some very rare exceptions of a certain physical being which may look scary who function as a collective. And when the mind takes its assumptions to that timeless reality, allot of despair occurs. It can get lost and confused, because the mind never got there. That dimension already is and already exists and always already existed. Just a different frequency of the same here and now.

The lucid waking, is indeed the most profound and beautiful and rich experience, it's what started this all for me. Tho I was way too young to understand the illusion of the ego at that time. Now that I know, I know there is required an ability to focus consciousness or stay present in consciousness to be able to more seemlessly transcend states of being and levels of consciousness, without getting halted by the illusions or misunderstandings of the ego. And realise the realness of the unnecessery resistance that ego can introduce to the whole experience, to more easily and effortlessly transcend them.

When I was in the timeless dimension, I thought that I would be stuck there forever. With all the misunderstandings I had about that dimension and what it actually truely is and who those beings were that were there and why and what they were actually doing and what their true state of being, beyond their appearance, actually was.

But you and others are definitely helping me understand more. Because you always helped me return back to true self. Along with everyone here.

There is a sense of appreciation for being able to share in this profoundness of all these things. The uniqueness and specialness of all of it. The ineffability of all of it and yet still somehow some way we are worthy enough to talk about it anyway. The appreciation that I have for this is profound. That it is all well.

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by iamthat

We recognise...
... Peace

Thank you, that is a beautiful analogy.

The stilness is always there, wether the change is or not. This is so valuable and deep to know.