What is real - What is an illusion

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

... If you're going to go the Spiritual route then strictly speaking what decides what is real or not doesn't exist so from that perspective there is neither Duality nor non-Duality.

That's the illusion.

Everything is real, but the perceiver distorts it. That's not that bad if he's aware he's distorting, even if doesn't know what's distorted.

The delusion is to believe that you know the truth!

Originally Posted by inavalan

Everything is real, but the perceiver distorts it.

Everything in perceptual reality is an hallucination, science will tell you that. In the context of Ahamkara, everything in perceptual reality is an 'invented thing'. The only reality is Absolute Reality. In Advaita Vedanta every 'thing' in an 'object' of consciousness and therefor not real and according the Tao Te Ching, "Things have no form in themselves."

And I'll qualify what I said, the ego decides what is real or not and, both scientifically and Spiritually, the ego doesn't exist. Your 'I' doesn't exist, my 'I' doesn't exist. The ego also decides what is delusion or not, the truth or not.

The secret is in the language, what is real or not, what is truth or not, what is illusion or not - this' and 'that' - is the differentiated conscious of the ego.

[snowyowl]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Everything in perceptual reality is an hallucination, science will tell you that. In the context of Ahamkara, everything in perceptual reality is an 'invented thing'. The only reality is Absolute Reality. In Advaita Vedanta every 'thing' in an 'object' of consciousness and therefor not real and according the Tao Te Ching, "Things have no form in themselves."

My sticking point here is, if all of my perception is hallucination, how do I realise the Absolute, if not via perception?

I find it hard to define 'Reality' in a practical way, so tend to use 'Physical' as an alternative, in a duality of Physical/Psychological. Physical is what is measurable externally; Psychological is what is felt and thought internally.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by inavalan

The only way out of it is to have that kind of experiences for yourself in altered states of consciousness, making all the efforts to put aside all your beliefs and expectations. Your truths are unconscious beliefs. Your conscious beliefs are assumptions. Forget all the dogmas and gurus you followed.

I couldn't agree more but I feel some at a point need guidance and leaning towards teachers to certain degrees can be helpful. What isn't helpful is those that in someway just recite what teachers say and try and make it their reality and an absolute Truth .

The mess that it creates is self evident on forums like these all over the world .

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by snowyowl

My sticking point here is, if all of my perception is hallucination, how do I realise the Absolute, if not via perception?

Really, how do you suppose you could perceive anything, without some form of perception?

the only thing i can think of, is, I have too much stuff. If I wanna see the floor I'm going to have to get rid of the clutter I've spread all over it. But that will only work if I arbitrarily decide to accept the idea the floor itself isn't more clutter... which it could go either way I suppose...

now if it is more clutter and I don't believe that I've just bought another hallucination. On the other hand if I decide it is more clutter things cold go either of two ways: If it does turn out to be more clutter I've bought myself more work cleaning up another hallucination, and where will that end? But if it isn't more clutter I've bought another hallucination in the form of something i've decided I have to 'clean up'...

apparently, it ends whenever I decide to stop and proclaim it ends... which is different from saying it ends wherever the natural ending is...

In my view, God was serious that this 'veil' thingy keep us deluded... something was said about what is the point of gaining the 'world' if one loses one's immortal soul in the process? So as far as I can tell one simply doesn't get to 'eden' without a lot of pain in the form of heart-wrenching honesty about life... and the loneliness that goes with. despite a lot of people presuming it possible anyway. And this defies the whole point of the love&light attitude sought by so many...

In my estimation the only good idea to get from all this is simply to quit wanting to realize the 'one true answer' and return to the land of the living...

Originally Posted by snowyowl

My sticking point here is, if all of my perception is hallucination, how do I realise the Absolute, if not via perception?

The real question is what are the reasons you want to realise the Absolute? Perceptions come from the processing of information from the five senses, from the psychological, so you need to go beyond that. You have to go beyond thoughts, beliefs and 'things' of the ego.

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

In my view, God was serious that this 'veil' thingy keep us deluded...

We're doing a grand job on our own.

[lemex]

Originally Posted by snowyowl

My sticking point here is, if all of my perception is hallucination, how do I realise the Absolute, if not via perception?

Excellent point snow. This is how it would happen!

We have perception of objects so things are not (absolute) a hallucination so no one is saying objects aren't in front of us, beside us, behind us, all around us. It is the association to objects where perception is the value, not the object. The chair you sit at, the computer, etc. These things do not have perception. We are really talking about our communication not related to objects. Talking oneself into something where one might say it was via when it was not, but was the person.

Originally Posted by lemex

no one is saying objects aren't in front of us, beside us, behind us, all around us.

Advaita is saying exactly that. Objects are appearances of and within Consciousness (the real Us). There are no real objects and there is no real "out there" in front of, beside, behind or around us. This includes the mind-body complex which is just another apparent object and not substantially different than any other object.

[lemex]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

There are no real objects and there is no real "out there" in front of, beside, behind or around us.

In the end this is how it will be and more. And yes objects are appearances but also (made) appeared! Force fields and particles and Advaita the painter. I wonder who the painter is. Ultimately as said even the appeared vanishes and so even illusion vanishes. Even illusion not meant to be permanent. Illusion themselves not real. It goes away. Every physical thing ultimately itself temporary and so in a cosmic sense illusion because it was never intended to be permanent. All goes away after trillion of eons and there will be nothing left but maybe what is not illusion. The question do we go away. Yes the mind-body complex is temporary not permanent and that illusion lasts as long as the physical and illusion does. Of course we are not ready for non illusion. That which is, is illusion in the end also is not permanent.

So I was wondering if it is more complete, is there any thing permanent or is everything illusion and nothing even beyond Advaita that should be included.

However the universe is real especially in the sense we use it and nothing exceeds it. Everything even illusion dependent on it to find creator even uses it. Not even creator exceeds illusion. Creator uses what is there. Illusion is used. Was wondering, does Advaita provide reason. I am interested it if it does. But to me what is more important is, if what one does in illusion state is it important or not and would one do if it were permeate. Is there a reason for illusion that deals with non-illusion.