Thoughts of a Random Nature

When I was a child I got into trouble in Sunday school for asking questions. Many an ounce of soft soap was forcefully squirted down my gullet to wash my sinful mouth out. I wondered how due to geography and not having access to the “right” or “one true” god someone like a Tibetan monk, a person who lives a very spiritual life, could be condemned to hell. Meanwhile a guy who rolls into church a couple of times a month and sleeps through the sermon might think that now he's absolved of sin just because he showed up and half-heartedly spewed the right prayer. None of that made sense to me and I decided at a young age to question things.

I made a study of religion and myths, particularly religious or spiritual myths from that time on and I'm glad I did, I had the curiosity of a child because I was one, and that helped me to have an open mind. One theme I saw with most of what I learned is the idea of unity but only to unify with others that are of like mind. It's a shame really. I suppose some of my attitude comes from hanging out in an Ashram or two and meditating on unity and seeing people with very different opinions and ideas coming together, I never saw it happen like that in a church.

It is off putting to me how folks run around like we're on the playground yelling, "My God can beat up your God...nyah, nyah..." In fact I would think it would be behavior like that that "God" would frown upon. It is undeniable that people will interpret the Bible or other religious tomes differently but one message rings true no matter what religion you look into, be good. Love one another. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Be excellent to each other and party on, dude. My opinion is that it isn't about who wins the big "My God is Better than Your God" cook off, it's about our actions. It's about our deeds. Often the religious seem delusional in their one mindedness about being right. Meanwhile, still others out there continue to grow and evolve and perhaps make their version of God, proud from his or her lofty perch. To often however, the argument keeps folks from learning from one another and separates us if we allow it to.

What would it take to unite us? Certainly not arguing over whose God has the whitest robes.

Science can't do it either and in fact, there is separation in that community as well. You are either into string theory or quantum loop gravity, you can't be into both. There are some things that science cannot answer. Not to diminish science, I always have been scientifically minded and open minded.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

- Aristotle
I used to find myself on a see-saw at times between thinking magically and thinking scientifically but hey, both are interesting and neither are definitively right or wrong and never will be, the scientist in me loves that because it means I have something to study for the rest of my life and the mystic in me loves that because, as Timothy Leary once said,

Ritual is to the internal sciences what experiment is to the external sciences

. And I do enjoy a good "magical working."

At times over the course of years I have pondered the fine line between seeking out answers and contemplating questions. Like Trinity said in The Matrix "It's the questions that drive us." It is often said that the Devil is in the details, I suppose like anything, there are a number of ways to interpret that sentiment, to me it is a reminder to not get too wrapped up in the details, whether seeking them out in religion, spirituality or science or a fine balance of all of those. Being a religious or a spiritual person isn't tantamount to knowing how many miles out into the desert Jesus got before he lost his sandals or how many initiations you have had to get to the 10th rung of the 5th order of the Order of the Something or Other.

Ones spirituality isn't measured by all the little details they have in their heads scientific or otherwise. The very concept of measuring it in the first place is ludicrous. In the end the details, the shiny bobbles and titles and all that rot don't matter, it is how we live, the example we set, that is where the answers really are. There is no prize for shiniest bobbles, there are no awards for what can only ever be theories to explain an unknowable that will forever be unknowable. No kudos, no reward other than the reward of living a full life. And never stagnating.

[organic born]

Wonderfully written Nettles..

Religion is an odd duck that, for many of us, landed directly in the middle of our early adaptive process of life~orientation. It entangled our imagination at a time when we were biologically integrating with our current lifetime.

With those images set so early it cast a shadow over our base interpretation of much of what we encountered from then-on.

So does it deserve this exalted place within our development? The father, son, and the holy ghost, is there anything to this? And should we be obsessed with an "image" of a god that does more to help bolster the agenda's of a belief structure, while standing in opposition to the uniqueness of our individual expression of being.

The one thing that always struck me as obvious about religion is that "you" need to become what "it" is, and should you fail to align then the problem is yours to contend with and not theirs. Untold numbers of children have been brutalized by this assumption, with untold number of adults are being drug in tow behind this truck that is going nowhere. Religion is not imaginatively "expansive", it's in service of itself.

Open and exploratory Spirituality is loaded with religious refugees. It's ranks are thick with those of us looking to shake an early influence that continued to register with us as intuitively empty. Thankfully we now have plenty of resources to draw-on to help alleviate this constriction on our natural curiosity. Perhaps in time such religious indoctrination will go the way of the dodo bird. But unlike the loss of a most unique species, the dissolving of religion will announce an evolutionary advancement toward the warm integration of mutually shared empathy!

[linen53]

Yet, if you hadn't gone to church you would have never had your eyes opened to searching for your own path, your own beliefs.

I grew up in "the church" and believed all the brainwashing they taught me for many years before I finally began to wake up and question. I am thankful for my church years because it was the springboard that got me to where I am today.

It all depends on how you look at your young experience.

I never make rash decisions on new information. I always, as I like to say, put it on a shelf (in my mind) and ponder it. As more information becomes available (Spirit has a way of doing that) I have a firmer understanding. At that point I can reject or accept it as my belief. But I always follow what my gut feeling, my heart, leads me to do.

We are so fortunate now. I grew up in an era where there wasn't the vast pool of information available at the touch of a keyboard. And libraries didn't carry spiritual stuff that wasn't Christian based. Now, however you can find anything you want in mere seconds on the internet. What a marvel! What resources!

I don't have a scientific mind but I do have a cautious one. My years have taught me that. To many mistakes, falling down, getting up, falling down and getting up again. I take things in stride and am not in a hurry about anything. It's one step in front of the other and tomorrow can take care of itself. I only have today. I can make it through today.

That's what it's like when you get older. The aches and pains and humiliation of age changes your whole concept of living. But that's a good thing. I wouldn't want t be 20 again. I move slower and appreciate what surrounds me.

And yes, to love. To be a servant to my fellow man. To add a spark to their eyes. To help them along their own path. To uplift them when they are down. To carry their burden for a few blocks.

Thanks for taking the time to read all that Organic Born and Deb...
I like what you have to say OB. Especially this bit:

The one thing that always struck me as obvious about religion is that "you" need to become what "it" is, and should you fail to align then the problem is yours to contend with and not theirs. Untold numbers of children have been brutalized by this assumption, with untold number of adults are being drug in tow behind this truck that is going nowhere. Religion is not imaginatively "expansive", it's in service of itself.

And Deb, I agree, I'm not "dissing" those church days, in fact, they came AFTER my even earlier influence in Taoism at an even younger age. I was an orphan and had several different "Check Cashers" aka: parents to learn from. It was only the fundamental Christian ones who put the MENTAL into fundaMENTAL as they resorted to religious abuse.
I have always said they piqued my curiosity though as I went to other churches after I was out of that house. From Catholic to baptist to Episcopalian, I've been to them all and part of the reason for that is that I too was doing all this long before the internet when information wasn't on a device in ones pocket. These days there is almost too much information out there and much if it is misleading, there are times and some circumstances where it is as much a curse as a blessing.
At any rate, thanks again for taking the time to read it.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by linen53

Yet, if you hadn't gone to church you would have never had your eyes opened to searching for your own path, your own beliefs.

I grew up in "the church" and believed all the brainwashing they taught me for many years before I finally began to wake up and question. I am thankful for my church years because it was the springboard that got me to where I am today.

It all depends on how you look at your young experience.

There are a couple of points here that are worth considering.

Our brains are biologically programmed to rationalize. It does so while attempting to make connections among events in order to provide us with a "feeling" of continuity. You just noted how you processed your own experience, but now let's up the ante. You've learned what you've learned and you're no longer in the same place that you were as a child. Let's say you have children of your own. Do you apply the experience and conditioning that mirrors much of your own as a child, or do you update your approach to reflect what you now know?

If a child of yours comes home and tells you that their sunday school teacher washed their mouth out with soap, do you then praise the teacher for their idealistic assertion or react instead to the violence that was just done to your child? Do you play-forward the admitted challenges that you accepted from your past or do you respond with your updated sensibilities?

Do you apply the experience and conditioning that mirrors much of your own as a child, or do you update your approach to reflect what you now know?

Hmmm

“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
― R. Buckminster Fuller

My approach with my kid is to let her make up her own mind and not criticize it without knowing what it is first.

[linen53]

organic born, I was not spiritually awakened enough to change the way my children regarded religion. I raised them as I was raised but just a different sect of the christian religion. They had a early indoctrination with the church.

I left the church when they were in their pre-teens and began searching on my own where I wanted to place my spiritual life. So they have a foundation in the christian religion. And later on with watching their mom read books like crazy afterward on all types of subjects that were spiritual but not religious.

I don't regret that they have a foundation in christianity. Life is life. We do the best we can with what we have at the time. As I stated to Nettles christianity was the springboard to where I am now. My foundation, so to speak.

There is a prayer I pray for my kids and grandkids. "Don't let them lose their path. Help them stay on course to learn what they came here to learn." That is my only prayer for each one of them.

I'm sorry if you think I was criticizing you Nettles. It is the farthest from the truth. I think we are fortunate to have gotten this far. Some don't. It sounds like you had a rough start in life. Bravo to you for rising above.

Thanks Deb, and no, never thought you were criticizing me, not even for a second....this is a weird medium for communication. LoL

[linen53]

Communication on the forum is in a state of heightened awareness. It takes a while to get the hang of it. I just didn't want you to think I was being negative. You're doing great!

[organic born]

Originally Posted by linen53

I don't regret that they have a foundation in christianity. Life is life. We do the best we can with what we have at the time. As I stated to Nettles christianity was the springboard to where I am now. My foundation, so to speak.

There is a prayer I pray for my kids and grandkids. "Don't let them lose their path. Help them stay on course to learn what they came here to learn." That is my only prayer for each one of them.

I love your prayer! I pray similar for my own children in a continuous way! They chose wisely when they chose you as their parent! :)