What exactly is CLEAR SEEING

[Uma]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Moving observation and spiritually thought provoking. I once revisited a field where we did alot of playing as children and mis spent some of our youth. Wheat was grown in this field which was over 40 acres..when I returned having moved out of the neighbourhood, the field was fallow and alot of weeds were growing there etc. The space has been industrialised now changing it even further. The experience gave rise to a poem and I was fascinated by the transfiguration of the place by 'Time'.

Another experience that your post brought up for me was when I went to do some work experience in a primary school, (elementary school) to see if I would or could go into Primary school teaching. When I stepped into the classroom it was an Alice in Wonderland experience, totally bizarre, odd and strange, tiny little chairs and desks

I love these memories and the way you shared them and your wise seeing.

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

At even a deeper level your post has given rise to my thinking about 'Change' and 'Spiritual Change'. Is there a difference between let's say worldly change and soulful awakening.

What do you mean by "worldly change" and by "soulful change"?

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

You say that things are changed forever when there is a spiritual awakening and I agree, or at least something like that, forgive me if I am mis-quoting you. But also the idea of change brings up death and even the idea of elimination where as 'Spiritual Change' for me brings up inclusion with no lose, so you can still use the emotions, thoughts and skills of your 'old self' if you so choose to.

This is just my opinion of course. When I had an OBE/NDE experience I was at once something completely different, transfigured but also I was still myself , too bad some people might say !!! (joke). So yes, thanks for the inspiration etc.

Thanks for your kind words and reflections and question.

Change and death are human words, aren't they? When we experience a more timeless space, a breathless space, they lose a lot of power. Isn't death really a transition experience from one state to the next? What happens in a transition? Something is lost, something new is found.

An OBE helps the seeing for sure! Out of body, helps us be more into the soul body experience and see that physical body is "not the real me".

An NDE experience (depends what it entails) can help us see even more. There are lots of NDE stories out there of nonbelievers coming back totally changed in consciousness from their experience, and confident of their purpose in life and what they have left to do.

Lots to explore.

[Uma]

Originally Posted by Redchic12

Love the glasses picture and words!

Goes with your name too!

[Mora321]

Originally Posted by saurab

WE have heard the words clear seeing before....

Many years ago I was driving on a multi-lane urban road in the rain at night. There were sodium street lights reflecting off water and hard surfaces.

In the distance I could see some unlit object on the road. I could not make it out until I was close. It was a horse on the road.

As soon as I knew what it was I could make out its various parts, then able to interpret what were previously disconnected odd gray shapes.

So the mental construct was necessary before I could integrate the bits that I was seeing.

Thus Clear Seeing generally requires my knowing what I am looking at.

If my belief systems are inadequate in scope and definition it is almost impossible for me to see clearly.

I find it useful to reference several beliefs/maps in any particular situation. Having only one theory would make me one-eyed.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by saurab

WE have heard the words clear seeing before. Many gurus have used these words to mean seeing something truthfully. But what does that mean because the way it is used it is most mechanical (a feel good word).

Let me illustrate what I mean by clear seeing by taking an example. My grandfather used to go to the horse races, and my mother, presumably in order to protect me when I was young, used to criticize my grandfather calling him a gambler. Later on, I came to realize the truth that he did not go to the horse races to gamble but to socialize because he had few friends. Socializing was the inner meaning of that activity for my grandfather. So, clear seeing involves the understanding of the inner meaning of what you or someone else is doing. This also leads to empathy. Without understanding the inner meaning you approximate the universal meaning on to a person and miss the real significance.

I'd call that "intuitive interpretation". It is only as good as you can leave out of the way your beliefs and expectations, and you don't rationalize that interpretation.

A guru, as everybody, can believe he sees clearly, but he may be mistaken.

If your grandfather excessively bet on the races, then he was gambling. If he didn't do that, then he wasn't gambling.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Uma

I love these memories and the way you shared them and your wise seeing.

Thank you,

Originally Posted by Uma

What do you mean by "worldly change" and by "soulful change"?

Not sure what I mean No seriously. I had an experience recently which might help explain. I sat and meditated the other day doing a meditation which I hadn't done in a couple of years. I wasn't looking for hard results let's say but the results were spectacular, I could really feel a current there that wasn't there before. The meditation was on loving kindness for oneself and others. Why was it so different than when I tried it at other times ? However, the difference was really subtle too. So I recon I've had a fair bit of 'Worldly Change' that had taken place, moving house, getting married, writing, parents growing old, lots of things like that, so stuff has shifted. So even though there has been much worldly change, I was still the one who experienced that loving kindness meditation in a more profound and expansive way. It was like a new suit or something, i could tell you where the suit was made by whom etc. etc. etc. (these would be the worldly ingredients) but not quite be able to tell you about what it feels like to wear it. Sorry for poor analogy
So there seems to me to be some kind of difference albeit it subtle, as you call it the 'Seeing of the Heart'. And as you say once you've seen it you've seen it, it won't be undone but also I feel that the 'percolation' of the seeing takes place sometimes unbeknowns to us which makes it a great mystery too something positive

The poet Derek Walcott says in his poem Love after Love,

You will love again the stranger who was your self.
Give wine. Give bread. Give back your heart
to itself, to the stranger who has loved you

Also TS Elliot's observation,

“We shall not cease from exploration And the end of all our exploring Will be to arrive where we started And know the place for the first time.”

But we also know that we know this place, so the knowing includes our 'old' selves too if that makes sense. We don't disregard our 'old self' and say, oh hi this is me the 2.0 version but the reason I say it, is that many do, the world seems to help people to do that as well.

Originally Posted by Uma

Change and death are human words, aren't they? When we experience a more timeless space, a breathless space, they lose a lot of power. Isn't death really a transition experience from one state to the next? What happens in a transition? Something is lost, something new is found.

Yes so death is part of a story, so someone leaves the stage whom we loved, if they leave unexpectedly or abruptly, tragically etc. then our whole world is turned upside down. We wait then with courage, which is extremely painful for alot of humans at first for the following acts of the play to unfold, which they do, this brings meaning again, if we can see through the tears of course. Meaning is restored. We even might conclude that the play has been determined planned in some way which points to 'A God' but maybe I'm taking it a bit too far hahahaha ! Thank you sorry my answer is a bit higglely pigglely and constrained. I feel the limitations of words in a way.

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[Uma]

I have higglety pigglety moments too (aplenty me thinks ). Love the quotations.

Originally Posted by Joe MC

Not sure what I mean No seriously. I had an experience recently which might help explain. I sat and meditated the other day doing a meditation which I hadn't done in a couple of years. I wasn't looking for hard results let's say but the results were spectacular, I could really feel a current there that wasn't there before. The meditation was on loving kindness for oneself and others. Why was it so different than when I tried it at other times ? However, the difference was really subtle too. So I recon I've had a fair bit of 'Worldly Change' that had taken place, moving house, getting married, writing, parents growing old, lots of things like that, so stuff has shifted. So even though there has been much worldly change, I was still the one who experienced that loving kindness meditation in a more profound and expansive way. It was like a new suit or something, i could tell you where the suit was made by whom etc. etc. etc. (these would be the worldly ingredients) but not quite be able to tell you about what it feels like to wear it. Sorry for poor analogy

If I understand you correctly by “worldly change” you mean material circumstances (what some of us call the shifting of the karmic stage, and we could quote Shakespeare on that one).

'All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players' (As You Like It, Act 2, Scene 7).

Your analogy of the suit ... let me try to rephrase it a bit. You say you tried a meditation technique or intention for the meditation practice (loving kindness meditation) and you had profound and expansive experience which you describe interestingly as a new suit that you could understand in one way but in another way is indescribable. I get that. This is what you mean by soul change?

Just as we play many roles in life, so too we wear many worldly suits but we know these roles are not us. Of course when get caught up in a role, thinking “I am a brother. I am a man or a woman. I am a banker. I am an adult. I am whatever,” then we allow the suit to take our power away. We have become it.

But when we have a soul change experience like you describe we come into a more expansive field of awareness and our ego experiences itself in a new way, like a new suit.

Is this more than or less what you meant?

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Uma

I have higglety pigglety moments too (aplenty me thinks ). Love the quotations.

Thank you. Forgive my spelling and ignorance, I thought it was higglely hahaha my black hen. Moving on swiftly lol.

Originally Posted by Uma

If I understand you correctly by “worldly change” you mean material circumstances (what some of us call the shifting of the karmic stage, and we could quote Shakespeare on that one).

Yes, definitely that kind of angle, obvious change let's say and ie material change. But I was also thinking of perception and how something like a couple of notes in a melody or colour in a painting can change it's whole meaning. Or those glasses you posted, they kinda seem obvious put when they are on you they are not obvious at all. lol, except for the world seems reddish lol.

So spiritual change or soulful awakening or something like that can be just be a tiny little shift, whereas folks have spoken about huge efforts to climb the spiritual mountain to become enlightened, its probably a male thing too, reach the goal etc. etc.etc. That kind of thing fascinates me or you could say the effort to reach enlightenment has been enormous as in the stories of The Buddha etc. but the change in folks is probably just a little or subtle shift in their awareness.

Also it feels to me that change in the world can be abrupt and it actually doesn't have to be and in a way it can't be, what leads up to spiritual expansion is often abrupt in terms of suffering perhaps or displacement etc. but when a spiritual expansion happens it's not abrupt it's filled with recognition like a garment, a nice garment of clothing you like or a pair of shoes, it feels ok and familiar etc. This is probably what i meant by the suit Oh the suit, the suit, the bloody suit hahaha. Sorry, I'm kinda acting there to myself. So yes its difficult to word a spiritual experience where you are at once transcendental but haven't really lost anything as in your body at death etc.

Definitely many roles we can play, brother, sister, worker, banker etc. And some folks are playing them because they are asleep. They are attached to the role as you suggest and spiritual expansion or ....Clear Seeing is not always an option at that moment. Thank you for the conversation ..allows me to absorb and examine some points even if it is in a Higglety Pigglety way

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[Tal M.]

As the mind gets chaotic, which it naturally tends to do, especially with so much false news from every angle, and false collective understanding of the whole, collective misdirection, contraction, split consciousness and emotions, fear, and limited language, it is necessary to practice seeing and questioning, everything, to get and perceive as clear as still water. The force that shrinks your understanding is always present.
The mind is like an orb of water, if it's disturbed, the water moves and it's hard to see through, the reflections get distorted, creating illusions, that so often are believed as truth, because the mind grips on what it thinks.
When the water is undisrupted, only then you can see through, and the truth clears up.
It is important to remember that you never know what you don't know. Since the universe is infinite, there is always more uncover. So don't catch the newfound knowledge as ultimate truth. It's always a relief, but don't settle. Always seek beyond...


*Side note - Clairvoyance is something else (saw it talked about in the comments) it is the ability to see intangible things with your physical sight. People with that ability are often called Seers, because it usually goes along with seeing through into the truth of the "matter". But those are 2 different practices.

[Mahdi El-Mirak]

Know Thyself are the words written on the Temple of Delphi thousands of years ago and to know something is to see it. To know one thing is to know all things.