Religious concepts in non duality

[mary isaak]

Originally Posted by Mahesh72

For the Birth and Death of every living, there must be a means. Likehow Covid-19 spreads to kill many Humans, they are descripted as 'satans/lucifers/Rakchasa'...

Hi Mahesh72,

Interesting, thank you very much for your reply.
Sorry, I am not sure I understand the difference between cause and means?
Thanks!

[mary isaak]

Interesting view, thank you very much Joe

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

The ideas of you bring up such as Paradise, Hell...

If I understand correctly, these concepts are made by the human mind to describe the "earthly experience".

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Making use of thought and concepts here on earth is something we are charged to do it seems ,whether we like it or not, it is not unenlightened activity.

I like this idea. I am still confused when it comes to thoughts. I can understand that thoughts may veil reality but at the same time, I feel they are useful in someway. But it is still very unclear for me.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by mary isaak

I struggled so much with the idea of satan,

Satan is based on Enki, who comes from Sumerian mythology and who appears in the Garden of Eden as a snake. Enki's title was Satam, which means 'administrator'. The book of Genesis is largely a re-write of the Sumerian Ennuna Elish and the Tales of Gilgamesh. It's also been said that Enlil was Yahweh but that's a little tenuous. In Sumerian mythology the Sumerians created slave labour from the local hominids and Enki wanted them sentient because he was on their side, Enlil didn't want them to be as clever as the 'gods'. Enlil forbade them to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, Enki as Satam/Satan told them to eat it - become conscious/sentient. Enlil set the flood, Enki told Noah to build the ark.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by mary isaak

If I understand correctly, these concepts are made by the human mind to describe the "earthly experience".
Thanks!

I think so Mary. I can see religions throughout historical development taking hold and even instigating certain attitudes towards these archetypal and primal forces within human consciousness, loss and gain, suffering and happiness, etc. But it would seem wrong to solely say religions invented themselves to mass control the people, that argument has never really sat well with me but i can also see its merits too and there is obviously some truth in it as well.

Your great topic and investigation has brought up for me the idea of 'Power' and 'Empowerment'. Do we empower our thoughts ? How so ? Perhaps this is a different topic though as I was thinking about Power in general. What Power might be and if it is somehow the opposite of Love ? Ty once again. Joe.

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[mary isaak]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Satan is based on Enki, who comes from Sumerian mythology and who appears in the Garden of Eden as a snake. Enki's title was Satam...

Thank you very much clarifying the historical facts Greenslade. The duality god/satan was always confusing to me.
I still wonder why the concept of satan survived so long and still very present in today's societies. Some christian and muslim schools, teach more about satan than they teach about god.
Thanks!

Originally Posted by mary isaak

Thank you very much clarifying the historical facts Greenslade. The duality god/satan was always confusing to me.
I still wonder why the concept of satan survived so long and still very present in today's societies.

All religions have one thing in common, they provide an ethical framework of some kind and for the most part, those that have a sense of right and wrong will want to preserve those structures. How many times have you seen someone's unacceptable behaviour and would have liked to have done something about it? Being honest, I've wanted to slap a few. Maybe if you were very religious, you'd want Satan to come and smite them down or take them away to purgatory. Isn't that what God would also want?

The whole idea of Satan is to paint a picture of a devil that will take you to purgatory for eternity, and the mind does the rest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)

The scariest places and beasties live in the depths of the human psyche, and the concept of Satan resonates with them.

You also have to put things into historical context and what was happening at the time, because that has certainly influenced Christianity. At the time it was wild, wild west and religious factions were beating the pulp out of each other. The natives were restless and law and order was about non-existent. What also comes into play here is simple human nature and the power-plays that develop in herds. Really, people have changed very little in over two thousand years.

How would you feel if I took your Spirituality away from you as a punishment?

Originally Posted by mary isaak

Sorry, I am not sure I understand the difference between cause and means?
Thanks

Anytime.

The 'cause' is something which brings out an 'effect'. But how? Through a 'means'.

I am, individually causing the effect within me. As well as one for themselves. But, no other things/beings/person is responsible/causing something to me. Even a child rape/any inhumane activity took/taking/will take place in this world, the person who is affected is the 'cause' of that 'effect' to them. We cannot find out 'cause', as people/sages say it may be previous birth too. But the 'means' is the person who affecting the effect. In case of theft, the thief is just a 'means'. But the person who is affected by the thief, is solely causing this effect. It is the responsibility of Protector/Police/Law/King to punish the thief, as the nation has to make peace within the country. Also this punishment, even death, the King is not the 'cause' for this punishment, but the 'means', and the 'thief' is the solely responsible 'cause' for this effect. If the King gives wrong judgement, then he is 'causing' some worse effect to him, which may reach him in that birth or the next births, through a 'means'.

WE don't have to research the 'cause' for the actions, as it is not perceivable by 'thinking' and even if it perceived, that knowledge is useless. Also we have to clearly perceive that "I am the cause of everything happens as an effect to me, also I am not the cause of everything happens to other people but a 'Means'".

[mary isaak]

Thank you very much for your interesting reply Joe

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

I think so Mary. I can see religions throughout historical development taking hold and even instigating...

I have the same view. I think there is truth in the core of religions. But, through the centuries, the real message got buried under layers of misunderstanding and manipulation.
But the idea of revelations and religions coming from god is very unclear to me. Everything comes from one source anyways, why certain things are divine and others are not ?

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Your great topic and investigation has brought up for me the idea of 'Power' and 'Empowerment'...

Very interesting questions. I am not sure what power could be. I used to believe that power and intelligence are synonyms, but now, coming to non-duality, I do not know how to define power or intelligence
Thanks!

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by mary isaak

I have the same view. I think there is truth in the core of religions. But, through the centuries, the real message got buried under layers of misunderstanding and manipulation.

Thank you Mary for your reply. I had an experience a few years back were I casually visited a Hare Krsna Temple. As I climbed the stairs the Mrdanga drums were pounding out an intoxicating beat and inside the temple room itself I was met by the sweet sound of a harmonium, kartels and oceanic like chanting. I knew in my heart at that very moment it was all for me It had all been constructed for me ! The idea had been kicking around strongly with me the last few days, that all religion was made for 'Me' lol It sent me into a state of pure joy and gratitude. However it didn't last that long as the thought came to me, if i where to say to one of the Hare Krishna devotees that this was all made for me, he would i knew in no uncertain terms challenge me and say no no no neti neti neti !!!! it was all made for Krsna !!!! And so that little event as uneventful as it might appear was trying perhaps to show me in a crude and simply way that there are no free lunches according to Religious ideas in general ! If only that imagined Devotee could have stayed away who knows where i might be now, floating half way through the universe

Originally Posted by mary isaak

But the idea of revelations and religions coming from god is very unclear to me. Everything comes from one source anyways, why certain things are divine and others are not ?

Indeed yes.

Originally Posted by mary isaak

Very interesting questions. I am not sure what power could be. I used to believe that power and intelligence are synonyms, but now, coming to non-duality, I do not know how to define power or intelligence Thanks!

lol, i had a few of these moments around music, singing and playing guitar with some friends, i thought just the otherday, if someone asked me what are you doing, i would be hard pressed to give them an answer !!! Of course you could say im configuring something, a few chords, a few notes lol singing out a melody to poetic words (hopefully). So moments of 'don't knowness' are ok too, sorry for digressing.

Anyway the power question came up in relation to my 6 year old son, who is one of my best teachers lol. So daddy is powerful im not that powerful ..i want to be like daddy..i noticed these kind of thoughts in him recently ..quite a natural thing, but do people in general in our world abuse power when they encounter vunerability etc. Thank you. Joe.

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Originally Posted by Joe Mc

if i where to say to one of the Hare Krishna devotees that this was all made for me, he would i knew in no uncertain terms challenge me and say no no no neti neti neti !!!! it was all made for Krsna !!!!

You could have told the imaginary devotee "I am Krishna and so are You". LOL!