What REAL proof do you have for life after death?

[Native spirit]

Would have to agree with that Less is definitely more



Namaste

[lemex]

Originally Posted by Altair

I don't think you'll find scientific proof for this, or any other spiritual phenomena.

I am curious from the conversation so far, what of supernatural encounters, for example ghosts. Communication with spirits would be included, physical interaction such as including time, interaction, visual, touch. These actions confirm (3d) real in ordinary awareness that confirms reality. Keep in mind these are experiences you will never have or experience. Does everyone feel they must have the experience for proof. Would the supernatural interaction experiencing be included especially if there is interaction that confirms interaction. What would be needed for proof if such experience will not ever be experienced or seen by you?

I ask because I had such an interactive experience and interacted with that can only be said as some thing (form) unusual that was 100 real. I am 100% sure it happened. Personally I am just aware there is more that caught me totally by surprised. Obviously the phenomena still presented itself in form (existent) at the same time or do such beings exists at the same time and life forms and they to die.

[bobjob]

Originally Posted by lemex

I am curious from the conversation so far, what of supernatural encounters, for example ghosts.

The point made by Altair was "I don't think you'll find scientific proof for this, or any other spiritual phenomena." Keeping things simple, ghosts are not spiritual. What they actually are seems impossible to nail in my experience but one thing is certain - ghosts and spirits are different inasmuch as a spirit can animate a body whereas a ghost can't. The former is an example of 'spiritual', the latter isn't.

Communication with spirits would be included, physical interaction such as including time, interaction, visual, touch. These actions confirm (3d) real in ordinary awareness that confirms reality. Keep in mind these are experiences you will never have or experience.

I don't understand.

Does everyone feel they must have the experience for proof.

I can't speak for everyone but this individual learns directly and vicariously.

Would the supernatural interaction experiencing be included especially if there is interaction that confirms interaction.

This has also lost me.....

What would be needed for proof if such experience will not ever be experienced or seen by you?

fair question but Altair has said scientific proof seems unlikely so whatever other form of 'proof' would be considered actual proof?

I ask because I had such an interactive experience and interacted with that ca...and they to die.

Not sure about this either but did your experience prove anything for you?

[lemex]

Originally Posted by bobjob

I don't understand. I can't speak for everyone but this individual learns directly and vicariously.This has also lost me.....

I think this doesn't answer the question about proof, learning may not be proof in terms one has not learned or experienced. But the proof is (if) it happens. If it happens it is proof? I think they were saying something didn't happen and you have to show me. But it could be about showing ourselves. I understand what Altair means but it should be understood most people will never experience anything and that is what is learned to say a person learning based on (non) experience may be false learning. Each have to simply be aware and say that is not my experience and so I wonder if it happens.

.... but Altair has said scientific proof seems unlikely so whatever other form of 'proof' would be considered actual proof?

Certainly in my own case proof of other forms of proof are in what happened and materialized, what I experienced knowing I experienced it and interacted with it. I will say I have always seen the phenomena as spiritual especially as it added clarity. I guess any knowledge is seen as thus. It may be other experiences though different from mine happen the same way in how they are known real and experienced. This is also why I never doubt another's experiencing. In my own case I now feel I don't need to prove as it was proven.

Not sure about this either but did your experience prove anything for you?

If you mean my own experience, absolutely showed me truth and was proven. Without the experience I would have to be a doubter for sure. It was an experience I had no inkling of. It was proven by happening and so may apply to other phenomena that happen. There is at least one thing I have certainty about I wouldn't have if it didn't happen and that's the ironic part I realize. There are many experience I have not had.

[Altair]

Lemex, you're taking it out of context. I mentioned scientific proof, not individual experience of spiritual phenomena. I know I'm more than a body but I can't prove that scientifically and I seriously doubt we ever will. Perhaps that is for the best. Having spirituality reduced to something that can be studied rationally would be another loss of enchantment I would not wish to see.

[bobjob]

It's pointless to keep asking for proof that there is life after death.

There is evidence of it but we have to be individually persuaded by that evidence. One individual's experience may or might not persuade somebody else who hasn't had similar experience.

Whatever evidence may persuade us as individuals remains something that can not be tested and proven (or disproven) by science, mathematics or any other form of testing.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by bobjob

It's pointless to keep asking for proof that there is life after death.

There is evidence of it but we have to be individually persuaded by that evidence. One individual's experience may or might not persuade somebody else who hasn't had similar experience.

For spiritual matters like life after death , there can rarely be proof in material repeatable quantifiable cause effect terms . But scientific proof is not simply limited to material repeatable quantifiable cause effect terms . Really scientific proof is cause effect relationships without insistence on material repeatability and quantifiability (depending on the subject matter ) . For example economics or psychology does not have such materially quantifiable cause effects . Yet it is science based on documented experiences of well-meaning honest sincere diligent people . In the same breath Spirituality too science based on documented experiences of well-meaning honest sincere diligent people .

Further rationality is an extremely important component of anything. Consistent , persistent and disciplined use of rationality in spirituality will deliver the results not only in after life but also in current life (which can be fine icing on the cake) .

[bobjob]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

For......... not simply limited to material repeatable quantifiable cause effect terms . Really scientific proof is cause effect relationships without insistence on material repeatability and quantifiability (depending on the subject matter ) . For ..........use of rationality in spirituality will deliver the results not only in after life but also in current life (which can be fine icing on the cake) .

Re the bold text, that's how you feel about "really scientific proof" but I wonder how many would agree?

I should declare that I personally need no persuasion but I do understand others' points of view.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

For example economics or psychology does not have such materially quantifiable cause effects . Yet it is science based on documented experiences of well-meaning honest sincere diligent people .

Those fields are not science. Social science is a misnomer, they get the label because they're studied formally in an academic setting. Real science is natural science. Doing some social research and using logic and Richter scale-feeling based questionnaires, or speculating within the man-made matrix that is economics, does not mean we're doing actual science. Giving some codes to social variables and doing some statistical tests is logical and systematic but not on the same page as studying nature directly. Fields like psychology and economics always have an inbuilt human bias, which is much easier to remove in natural science.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by bobjob

Re the bold text, that's how you feel about "really scientific proof" but I wonder how many would agree?

Hi

I am aware that very few may agree with this. And I am quite ok with that. I dont wish to convince anyone against one's wishes without conviction. And I have no undue fascination with science either and I like spirituality very much even without being labelled as science . My love for spirituality is in no way connected with it being labelled/recognized as science.

My point is reality never works on the agreement or otherwise of majority . e.g. when majority felt that humans can not fly , wright brothers proved the majority wrong with aircraft invention. When majority felt earth was flat , galileo / copernicus proved it otherwise .

Now wrt topic in discussion we need to bear in mind the world is made of matter and spirit . It is simply not matter . So applying the pure yardsticks of material sciences like shape, form, name, color, properties ,state, size, length etc to understand spiritual reality simply does not apply. Even for mundane day to day material experiences like taste of food , melody of song , beauty etc we are not unduly obsessed with material quantifiability . So the same view can/should be adopted for spiritual concepts . It does not mean to leave critical tests/scrutiny of ideas and to leave rationality behind and become superstitious believing everything and anything(which at times is childish and foolish also).

Study of cause effect is generally regarded as science (like psychology / economics ) . And with that yardstick only I consider spirituality as science .

PS - I know you dont need any persuasion on this and u are already convinced about afterlife . This points are just for general discussion with complete liberty to think/believe anything to everyone .