How do thoughts arise ... along with duality?

[HITESH SHAH]

Thoughts origin lies one or more of combination of following.

1. Sub conscious (preferences,preconceived notions,likes/dislikes etc)
2. External environment
3. Internal environment /factors such as education,orientation,innate role we see for us,our world view,Imagination/memory etc

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

"How do thoughts arise?"

The how is not for me to get entangled in, Source designed it this Way(So Be It).

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

"How does the One get entangled in thoughts and duality?"

By not choosing the Spiritual Light of Forgiveness which is a detangler and tangle preventer.

Then to me the next best question would be where does one find this Forgiveness/detangler?
I would say in the Pure Heart which I would best describe as "Source Love".
Source Love never entangles and thoughts focused from Source Love are always Pure and innocent, and free flowing as in a dance.

Though I know nothing of Non Duality I still wanted to play.
Matter of fact I believe more in Triality.
If my post provokes any entangled thoughts, please forgive them and let them go.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 15 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by iamthat

... there is a certain spiritual teacher who says that our thoughts are not our own.

I do not find myself suddenly thinking of things which have no connection to me.


One difficulty I have found in myself is a subtle attachment to thinking. I am naturally quite mental, and the world of thoughts is both comfortable and familiar.

This is a very "thought-provoking" post ( ) that raises some very interesting questions about "How do thoughts arise?"

Like yourself, I WAS naturally quite mental and very comfortable with the world of thoughts. I was a Phi Beta Kappa in college, academically accomplished, and could easily hold my own in most intellectual discussions. Breaking myself free of that intellectualism presented a great challenge to my spiritual mentor and she did it quite masterfully.

Let me share one of my unforgettable (at least to me) BREAKTHROUGH stories from many many years ago. My teacher was speaking at my home and I had invited over 30 of my friends to attend and they were sitting everywhere .. on the floor, on the stairs, in both the living room and the dining room, and wherever there was space. At one point, she looked at me specifically and said that I had a very strong "intuition" and should follow it unquestioningly. I repeatedly said that I did follow my intuition and, each time, she responded emphatically that I did NOT. Finally, she advised me that ... the next time I had a "pure intuition' ... I should follow it unquestioningly and I would discover something very important. That spurred my curiosity and I agreed.

The very next morning, as I sat in my meditation room, the discovery process started. Normally, I could enter the silence very quickly but, this morning, I could not. A strange "impossible" sequence of thoughts kept arising with the gist being that it was imperative that I visit a gay boyfriend (whom I didn't know at all) of an acquaintance (whom I barely knew) "TODAY" (urgent) since it was a matter of life and death. I tried unsuccessfully to expel this "ridiculous" thought repeatedly using the Thought-Expulsion Method mentioned previously ... but the thought sequence kept arising uncontrollably. At some point, my teacher's words from the evening came to mind and I started to wonder whether this was the "pure intuition" happening that she had foreseen.

First of all, I pondered about exactly what was "pure intuition" and whether this was "pure intuition". First of all, I wanted this to go away. There was seemingly nothing to be gained by following through on this. I felt that I would probably look foolish calling my acquaintance about his boyfriend whom I did not even know and saying that I had to see him today since it was a matter of "life or death". I finally concluded that this was a "pure intuition".

I hesitatingly called my acquaintance fully prepared to be ridiculed for this ridiculous call. However, I was instead surprised to hear that he had been concerned about his boyfriend's strange recent behaviors and decided to call his boyfriend. Almost immediately, he called me back to say that his boyfriend wanted to see me TODAY.

I was still reluctant to pursue this but reluctantly (and curiously) left my house immediately to take the subway from Brooklyn to midtown Manhattan (about a one hour trip) to meet a person whom I didn't know and tell him what seemed like an absurd "intuition". I was understandably anxious about this meeting. When I arrived at the boyfriend's apartment, my acquaintance was already there. I then told the boyfriend the story about my teacher and the thought that had come up in meditation which I felt was "pure intuition" ... and cringed. At that point, the boyfriend started to cry and revealed something that neither I nor my acquaintance had known. He said that he had just been diagnosed with AIDS .. twice. (This was in the 1980s when the disease was an unknown and generally fatal.) He then revealed the killer statement .... that evening, after my acquaintance had left on a business trip, he said that he had everything he needed in his apartment to commit suicide. He added that he had prayed that, if he was not supposed to commit suicide, that there be a clear UNMISTAKABLE sign. This, he said, was the sign. (Needless to say, my acquaintance canceled his business trip. The boyfriend got into yoga/meditation with me and my teacher. In time, he tested negative for the disease. We can talk more about the nature of the body and healing at a later time in this thread.)

To get back to your question, where did these thoughts arise about this "life or death matter". I did not even know this fellow. I barely knew this acquaintance and he did not know about his boyfriend's condition. One could argue that there might have been a telepathic component to this, but I am not convinced of this. My sense is that one connects in the stillness with an "expanded consciousness", a Cosmic Mind in a way, that creates such thoughts in the Jungian collective unconscious. These thoughts certainly did not come from my LIMITED self but they clearly came from somewhere. This was good food for meditation and, of course, I discussed this with my spiritual mentor. You mentioned a teacher who had said that "our thoughts are not our own" in certain cases. Perhaps these thoughts did actually apply to my Self (capital "S" is significant now) but in a way that I had not previously imagined.

Starting with whatever comments you have, we can use this as a catalyst for a discussion on the nature of Revelation which bears some similarity to the above story. I investigated the REVELATION process a lot through the writings of a respected Kabbalistic Rabbi which were consistent with my own understanding of the process.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 16 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by God-Like

You still seem to be referring to different layers of the mind in my eyes,

When you say one can quiet the mental activity, do you mean one can transcend it? I say this because one cannot be thinking at all but one will be of the mind .

You have to transcend self and mind completely .

This is starting to get more and more interesting now that you have brought up the "different layers of the mind".

At one point, I had a startling revelation during meditation which I brought to the attention of my teacher. It was specifically related to the different layers of the mind and I was wondering if this was just crazy nonsense that was manifesting.

She directed me to the Yoga Vashistha (Vasishtha was reported the sage-teacher of Sri Ram). Some of the stories would have once seemed mind-boggling but now they instead provided supporting explanatory information about my meditative revelations.

The Yoga Vashistha discusses "time within time within time ...." and the various "mansions in my Father's House" (to use alternate Christian terminology). It became clear that there is a hierarchy in consciousness. (Jung empirically borders on this with his understanding of the collective unconscious.) For those entangled in a dream, there is one understanding of time. In the so-called walking-state, there is another understanding of time. In the case of the Tibetan Yogi Milarepa, he realized that whatever he could do in the lucid-dream state was also possible at the next level, which is obviously the so-called waking state. Once one can still the mind on one level, another level bursts through. I am curious to hear any comments you may wish to share on the various levels. I have personally met extraordinary beings who can navigate at least what Jung calls the collective unconscious ... and more.

I was also directed to the Christian mystic Teillard de Chardin and his vision of the Omega Point and the matrices in the realms of consciousness. His vision was very similar to my understanding.

First, however, what comments do you have about "time within time within time ...." or "world within world within world...". There was a movie, "Inception", which actually goes into this.

Hence, when you write that "You have to transcend self and mind completely', what exactly to you mean and how many "different layers of mind" have you transcended? I am asking for this clarification as I don't want to be mistaken again regarding your understanding of transcendence and the Reality.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Where do all of those come from?

That is EXACTLY where I am going ... "where do all of those come from".

I just wrote a long response to Iamthat which is headed in the direction that you are questioning.

Good question. Let's investigate this together. Since you are a Jungian, we can talk in terms of the collective unconscious though that may not be expansive enough.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 21 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Thoughts origin lies one or more of combination of following.

What you listed are definitely sources for thoughts (), but is that list complete or is there more as we are now discussing?

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Hence, when you write that "You have to transcend self and mind completely', what exactly to you mean and how many "different layers of mind" have you transcended? I am asking for this clarification as I don't want to be mistaken again regarding your understanding of transcendence and the Reality.

Well I dare say there as many infinite levels -layers-states of mind as there are individuals . This being the case because every individual perceives self and the reality lived in their unique way .

We can refer to these like you have said in regards to lucid dream experiences, astral travel, multidimensional realities and so forth ..

The self and mind reflect as multifaceted but it doesn't matter if you're vibrating in 5d, 12d, or are astral travelling in the elemental realms for it is all mind . All experience is of the mind . All self related awareness is of the mind .

The silence is of the mind, experiencing silence .

When I speak about transcending, I refer to there being no experience, no self awareness ..

It's the difference between (words allowing) the experience of oneself to the being of oneself prior to experience . Prior to knowing, prior to thought, prior to anything manifest .

This is why I keep on asking you and other's how is it that one can say the world and the peeps are illusory and are of a dream when Self realisation is beyond all that .

If you infer that all these realisations come out of the silence, then the silence must be mindful and in reflection of self .

I would have to point out if this was the case that they are not realisations, they are just mindful conclusions made . The same conclusions that Ramana renounces at some point .


x daz x

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

First of all, I pondered about exactly what was "pure intuition" and whether this was "pure intuition".

We don't know enough about the unconscious and how it works, neither Spiritually nor scientifically. According to Stuart Hameroff and Roger Penrose (both well-respected in their fields) we have quantum consciousness via microtubules in the brain. It's possible if not likely that is what Jung saw as the collective consciousness, the 'collective' part being the quantum field. Whether that accounts for mediumship too or not is moot but interesting.

Intuition is on the same 'waveband' as mediumship and there's not so much between them really, so if it was 'genuine' intuition then that could be a hint of mediumship abilities coming through. We all have the potential and often the only reason we don't develop them any further is how we perceive ourselves. Everybody experiences mediumship/intuition differently so for myself, I notice there's a consciousness shift where I feel I've changed frequency. Kinda sorta. Meditation or the aftermath of would do the trick and many mediums meditate before communing with Spirit.

People who are intuitive can usually tell is someone else is intuitive. It's also possible that your friend is an 'always-on' medium, she seemed to understand what's going on with you.

Mediumship/intuition are not thought-based and that's the difference, and although they enter our consciousness the same as thoughts do sometimes you might notice that they are slightly 'different'. I talk about energy in tandem with this because it makes sense, and if it's about quantum microtubules that makes sense. But I do perceive a difference between 'regular thoughts' and intuition.

Talking of which. I licked up on something else you were talking about in another post and I Googled it because I'd never heard of it. It didn't sit well with a headful of the day's spazz so I left it. Next day I wasn't thinking of anything in particular when a large billboard with the word came into my head and the voice I take notice of said "21 steps."

If I'm doing a private reading, something I use is what I call the "21 Steps." it's a visualisation technique and apparently there's a similar technique used for Past Life exploration for much the same reason. The first ting I do is explain the process to the person as best I can, telling them everything I can. Then I take both their hands, tell them to close their eyes and listen to my voice. With as much detail as possible I take them own a dark, castle passageway, describing both how it looks and what they can hear in as much detail as possible. I always pause them once or twice to look at the light that floats above their heads, it's reassuring. Then I turn them down a corridor and count them down 21 steps, and pausing halfway to make sure the light is still there.

What happens when we get to the bottom is the fun part, because by that time they are on a kind of semi-hypnotic/ almost meditative state. Everything that happens down there and who/what they meet comes from their own consciousness, and it does help if they can still interact with the person that takes them on the Journey. If the person has had enough I walk them back up the steps again because bringing them out too quickly causes a shock.

try it with someone sensible you can trust, it's interesting.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Let me share one of my unforgettable (at least to me) BREAKTHROUGH stories from many many years ago. My teacher was speaking at my home and I had invited over 30 of my friends to attend and they were sitting everywhere .. on the floor, on the stairs, in both the living room and the dining room, and wherever there was space. At one point, she looked at me specifically and said that I had a very strong "intuition" and should follow it unquestioningly. I repeatedly said that I did follow my intuition and, each time, she responded emphatically that I did NOT. Finally, she advised me that ... the next time I had a "pure intuition' ... I should follow it unquestioningly and I would discover something very important. That spurred my curiosity and I agreed.

Great Story I enjoyed reading it, a great illustration of an intuitive Communication. It seems to me that thoughts are just charges of energy, of course they take on the shades of many colours and the shapes of many things. They are often a perfunctory expression of how we function, a bio chemical reaction ? Of course we all want to know what might be creating thought, Vasanas, Memory, personality traits. But a great question came to me years ago, when does 'ordinary thought' if there is such a thing become wisdom. As with the message you received about a sick person, the message could be categorised as wisdom as opposed to incarnate thought. Anyway just a thought or two Thanks. Regards Joe.

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Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

1. Sub conscious (preferences,preconceived notions,likes/dislikes etc)
3. Internal environment /factors such as education,orientation,innate role we see for us,our world view,Imagination/memory etc

Same thing, the unconscious is our internal reality.