Was Jesus saving people from hell or from themselves?

[Lamie]

The concept of salvation appears to be vital to the core belief system amongst organized religious Christians. The popular belief of “being saved” specifically from the evangelical worldview is that if one’s soul is saved, he/she is able to gain access to paradise in the afterlife and not perish in a hellish spiritual realm. Essentially, when one is “saved” the idea is that an accompaniment of guilt of past transgressions are also made conscious to the point of a complete lifestyle transformation to that of a “Christ like” character.

However, a word study of the Koine Greek word Soterion (saved, rescued) as mentioned in all four Gospels reveal an alternate interpretation aside from being saved from “Hell” but rather a rescue from ones own maladaptive behaviors and thoughts towards oneself, others and possibly anything God created. Using the word study option provided by the biblical app Logos, the following are Gospel passages using the word ‘saved’. Brief commentaries are added for both context clarity and use of alternative interpretations.


Mt 1:21 “He will save his people from sin.” No particular mention of being saved from Hell exists in this verse. Instead, a rescuing from ones own wrong doing is the target most likely for a reversal.

Mt 10:22 “...endure and be saved” the context here is Jesus warning his disciples
of a future impending persecution for their message of the Gospel. The term ‘saved’ here most likely refers to the saving of their physical lives from an earthly death by the hands of their persecutors as in v. 23 Jesus warns them to “flee to the next town...”

Mt 19:25 “...who can be saved if the rich cannot?” Possibly, due to their love of money the rich will enter the Kingdom of God but at a later time; after correction as Jesus states that “the first will be last and the last shall be first.” This may be so since eternal life here is actually combining physical and spirit as in v. 28 Jesus refers to the Regeneration or the World to Come which is not referring to after an individual’s death, but heaven being placed on earth.

Mt 24:13 “The one who endures will be saved.” The context here is Jesus warning his disciples of future enmity between people of the same household, and that love will grow cold. However, those who continue in love will be saved not only from sins but possibly also from the surrounding calamity.

:22 “Had not the days been cut short no one would be saved” Here, Jesus continues with his explanation on the impending calamity on Judea by force of the Romans. Being saved here points closer to physical rescue rather than a spiritual one as Jesus states in v. 16, “Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains...”

Mt 27:42 “He saved others...” The context here refers to Jesus as he is crucified and his scoffers are questioning why he saved others (most likely from sickness and ailments by divine healing) and not himself.

Mark 8:5 “whoever loses his life for me and the Gospel’s sake will save it”...This possibly refers to the Apostle commission in Mt 28 or a connection to Mt 10:22.

Mark 10:26 see Mt 19:25

Mark 13:13 see Mt 10:22

:20 see Mt 24:22

Mk 15:31 see Mt 27:42

Mk 16:16 ‘Believe, get baptized then you’ll be saved’ The verses in ch 16 beginning at verse 9 were added late into the book of Mark and are not found in the earliest manuscripts. This added ending is also one of two added endings and is the longer version. One thing to note also is that Mk 16:16 uses the word “saved” much differently than any other Gospel making the verse an outlier.

Lk 7:50 “You’re faith has saved you...” The context here is Jesus being treated with special attention by a female servant. Previous verses show that her behavior towards Jesus out of what he referred to as her “love” was the catalyst to being saved from her sins. Notice v. 47 like Mt 1:21 does not say saved from “Hell” but from sins.

Lk 8:12 “In order that they might not be saved after believing...” Here, Jesus is explaining a parable to which Satan attempts to steal the word of God from the
listener. Here, not being saved could refer to not being able to hear the message of what righteousness looks like towards oneself or their neighbor and remain in their maladaptive state.


Lk 18:26 see Mt 19:25

Lk 19:10 “The son of man came to seek and save the lost”...Salvation was said to occur in this verse when a tax collector shared his wealth. Ultimately, there was an adaptive behavioral choice made by the tax collector which rescued him from misappropriation of his neighbor (sin).

Jn 3:17 “Not to condemn the world but to save it...” The last four verses in the book of John refer back to mankind being saved from their own malpractices as noted above.

Jn 5:34 I say these things so that you might be saved...

Jn 10:9 Enter by my door and he will be saved...

Jn 12:47 I did not come to judge the world but to save it...

Conclusion:
The study of the word “Saved” in all four Gospels revealed that salvation was not referring to being saved from “Hell” but either from ones own errors (sins) or from physical calamity. In some cases, those who were saved in the Gospels did not ask for salvation first in order to change their lifestyles but instead, they acted lovingly towards their neighbor and was granted forgiveness of their sins almost automatically. I argue that the evangelical version of salvation is a distortion from the Gospel’s true meaning and based on the Mk 16:16 concept which was a late addition to the Gospels. However, this discussion is certainly open for controversy.

[davidmartin]

Lamie i certainly think you are on to something
Another possibility is that Jesus meant that this world is hell, and salvation relates to this. There's many hints in that direction too, and well, look at the news on any given day...

It can come down to where you place the emphasis how it is understood i think
I don't think evangelicals will ever change their mind on the importance of salvation or abandon the dualistic connotations. Like you I'm not sure they are completely correct in their understanding of it, yet it would be incorrect to go too far the other way as well

[theophilus]

Paul explains this subject more clearly in his letter to the Romans. The entire human race is guilty of sinning against God.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Romans 1:18-23 ESV

God is holy and sinless. If he permitted sin to go unpunished he would cease to be sinless so he must punish us. The only way we can escape punishment is for someone else to take our guilt on himself and bear the punishment we deserve. That is what Jesus did when he died on the cross. The fact that he rose from the dead shows that God accepted his sacrifice. Because Jesus is God as well as man his sacrifice was enough to pay for all sins, so anyone can be forgiven by repenting of his sins and putting his faith in Jesus.

[sky]

Originally Posted by theophilus

Paul explains this subject more clearly in his letter to the Romans. The entire human race is guilty of sinning against God.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Romans 1:18-23 ESV

God is holy and sinless. If he permitted sin to go unpunished he would cease to be sinless so he must punish us. The only way we can escape punishment is for someone else to take our guilt on himself and bear the punishment we deserve. That is what Jesus did when he died on the cross. The fact that he rose from the dead shows that God accepted his sacrifice. Because Jesus is God as well as man his sacrifice was enough to pay for all sins, so anyone can be forgiven by repenting of his sins and putting his faith in Jesus.

' The entire human race is guilty of sinning against God. '


Oh my Theo how negative that seems, I will definitely disagree with you. Firstly you would have to know every person in the entire World and secondly I personally know people who have never sinned....

If God is Holy and sinless then so are we all as we are made in his image and likeness

[BigJohn]

Lamie,

YOU ARE SPOT ON!

[Lamie]

Theophilus,

Thank you for your reply which falls into the category of mainstream fear based dogmatic evangelicalism. If you notice my original post, I limited the word study to the four Gospels. You have admitted that Jesus is God but yet you bypassed his words and decided to use Paul’s instead. This is a pattern I’ve observed with evangelicals mainly because they are unable to find Jesus in agreement with Paul at times. The reason for this (an entire study can be done in Paul) is due to Paul being mistakenly understood to be God’s mouth piece in a prophetic manner when the reality is that Paul is only speaking his opinion and/or personal philosophy on the matter of theology. For example, Paul is the only apostle to reject women as teachers of men whereas no other disciple, apostle, Jesus nor God the Father ever stated such in the entire Bible.

You also mentioned that one must receive salvation through seeking when the word study above shows clear evidence of no one asking for salvation from either Jesus or God the Father but automatically receiving it after performing godly deeds of kindness. These are what I find to be difficult passages for evangelicals to tackle so Paul in all of his rigidness is usually the go to person when they can’t find it in Jesus.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by theophilus

Paul explains this subject more clearly in his letter to the Romans. The entire human race is guilty of sinning against God.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Romans 1:18-23 ESV

God is holy and sinless. If he permitted sin to go unpunished he would cease to be sinless so he must punish us. The only way we can escape punishment is for someone else to take our guilt on himself and bear the punishment we deserve. That is what Jesus did when he died on the cross. The fact that he rose from the dead shows that God accepted his sacrifice. Because Jesus is God as well as man his sacrifice was enough to pay for all sins, so anyone can be forgiven by repenting of his sins and putting his faith in Jesus.

I would say everything you wrote is SPOT ON except the phrase "Jesus
is God and man" which I would replace with "Jesus is god and man".

[BigJohn]

֍....Lamie,
Ꝡⱸlcⱺme to the ẝⱺrựm!....֎

[Lamie]

Thanks BigJohn!

[ThatMan]

Originally Posted by Lamie

The concept of salvation appears to be vital to the core belief system amongst organized religious Christians. The popular belief of “being saved” specifically from the evangelical worldview is that if one’s soul is saved, he/she is able to gain access to paradise in the afterlife and not perish in a hellish spiritual realm. Essentially, when one is “saved” the idea is that an accompaniment of guilt of past transgressions are also made conscious to the point of a complete lifestyle transformation to that of a “Christ like” character.

However, a word study of the Koine Greek word Soterion (saved, rescued) as mentioned in all four Gospels reveal an alternate interpretation aside from being saved from “Hell” but rather a rescue from ones own maladaptive behaviors and thoughts towards oneself, others and possibly anything God created. Using the word study option provided by the biblical app Logos, the following are Gospel passages using the word ‘saved’. Brief commentaries are added for both context clarity and use of alternative interpretations.


Mt 1:21 “He will save his people from sin.” No particular mention of being saved from Hell exists in this verse. Instead, a rescuing from ones own wrong doing is the target most likely for a reversal.

Mt 10:22 “...endure and be saved” the context here is Jesus warning his disciples
of a future impending persecution for their message of the Gospel. The term ‘saved’ here most likely refers to the saving of their physical lives from an earthly death by the hands of their persecutors as in v. 23 Jesus warns them to “flee to the next town...”

Mt 19:25 “...who can be saved if the rich cannot?” Possibly, due to their love of money the rich will enter the Kingdom of God but at a later time; after correction as Jesus states that “the first will be last and the last shall be first.” This may be so since eternal life here is actually combining physical and spirit as in v. 28 Jesus refers to the Regeneration or the World to Come which is not referring to after an individual’s death, but heaven being placed on earth.

Mt 24:13 “The one who endures will be saved.” The context here is Jesus warning his disciples of future enmity between people of the same household, and that love will grow cold. However, those who continue in love will be saved not only from sins but possibly also from the surrounding calamity.

:22 “Had not the days been cut short no one would be saved” Here, Jesus continues with his explanation on the impending calamity on Judea by force of the Romans. Being saved here points closer to physical rescue rather than a spiritual one as Jesus states in v. 16, “Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains...”

Mt 27:42 “He saved others...” The context here refers to Jesus as he is crucified and his scoffers are questioning why he saved others (most likely from sickness and ailments by divine healing) and not himself.

Mark 8:5 “whoever loses his life for me and the Gospel’s sake will save it”...This possibly refers to the Apostle commission in Mt 28 or a connection to Mt 10:22.

Mark 10:26 see Mt 19:25

Mark 13:13 see Mt 10:22

:20 see Mt 24:22

Mk 15:31 see Mt 27:42

Mk 16:16 ‘Believe, get baptized then you’ll be saved’ The verses in ch 16 beginning at verse 9 were added late into the book of Mark and are not found in the earliest manuscripts. This added ending is also one of two added endings and is the longer version. One thing to note also is that Mk 16:16 uses the word “saved” much differently than any other Gospel making the verse an outlier.

Lk 7:50 “You’re faith has saved you...” The context here is Jesus being treated with special attention by a female servant. Previous verses show that her behavior towards Jesus out of what he referred to as her “love” was the catalyst to being saved from her sins. Notice v. 47 like Mt 1:21 does not say saved from “Hell” but from sins.

Lk 8:12 “In order that they might not be saved after believing...” Here, Jesus is explaining a parable to which Satan attempts to steal the word of God from the
listener. Here, not being saved could refer to not being able to hear the message of what righteousness looks like towards oneself or their neighbor and remain in their maladaptive state.


Lk 18:26 see Mt 19:25

Lk 19:10 “The son of man came to seek and save the lost”...Salvation was said to occur in this verse when a tax collector shared his wealth. Ultimately, there was an adaptive behavioral choice made by the tax collector which rescued him from misappropriation of his neighbor (sin).

Jn 3:17 “Not to condemn the world but to save it...” The last four verses in the book of John refer back to mankind being saved from their own malpractices as noted above.

Jn 5:34 I say these things so that you might be saved...

Jn 10:9 Enter by my door and he will be saved...

Jn 12:47 I did not come to judge the world but to save it...

Conclusion:
The study of the word “Saved” in all four Gospels revealed that salvation was not referring to being saved from “Hell” but either from ones own errors (sins) or from physical calamity. In some cases, those who were saved in the Gospels did not ask for salvation first in order to change their lifestyles but instead, they acted lovingly towards their neighbor and was granted forgiveness of their sins almost automatically. I argue that the evangelical version of salvation is a distortion from the Gospel’s true meaning and based on the Mk 16:16 concept which was a late addition to the Gospels. However, this discussion is certainly open for controversy.

I am really happy that there are more "thinkers" that know that there's a lot more hidden in the Bible than the first impressions ones gets from reading it.

Please check John 9:41 "Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth."

We know that the Bible clearly states that all men are sinners and yet Jesus said that a blind man ( not in a physical way but in a spiritual way ) should have no sin and this should not be possible because the curse of sin fell upon all mankind, clearly someone had it wrong.Jesus corrected the jews in many things, it's like they had a distorted view of the Creator and He showed them the true nature of the Creator.