The self/I is not ego-mind. The ego-mind is not the sense of I/self.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The mind is in a symbiotic relationship with the ego and is not subordinate to it, it's one of the aspects of the framework of the ego. The self encompasses the ego and the unconscious, which also has a number of processes 'operating' that most people don't even know exist, but yet are instrumental in choices, decisions and beliefs - they are a part of the creation of the framework or one's reality. What you become conscious of is, for the most part, a 'product' of those 'subsystems. Jung says that the ego (one of the descriptors he uses anyway) is the centre of the field of consciousness. The self encompasses both the conscious (the ego) and unconscious aspects, the unconscious aspects being the Shadow Self, cognitive behaviour and dissonance, animus and anima...........

If you prefer a more Spiritual approach then you should be aware of Ahamakara and its underlying Chitta, Ahamkara has been described as the "I-maker" and Chitta is Lower Mind. It's worth noting that Jung was a scholar of Eastern Spirituality and based his model of the ego on Ahamkara, and that many understandings psychology has have parallels to ancient Eastern understandings.

So my question is, are people truly self aware when they don't know how (or even about) the unconscious 'subsystems' of the self are even 'operating'? Because they are part of the self.

"People measure their self-knowledge by what the average person in their social environment knows of himself, but not the real psychic facts which are for the most part hidden from them."
Anyone who has any ego-consciousness at all takes it for granted that he knows himself. But the ego knows only its own contents, not the unconscious and its contents.

"People measure their self-knowledge by what the average person in their social environment knows of himself, but not by the real psychic facts which are for the most part hidden from them. In this respect the psyche behaves like the body, of whose physiological and anatomical structure the average person knows very little too.
Carl Jung, "The Undiscovered Self.

The ego utilises reason, intelligence, logic.... all that 'mind stuff' to 'process' and 'navigate' this level of reality - your "tools and instruments," they're all used to interact with the physical world around us. The unconscious is apart from mind and utilises dream-like states which have a very different 'logic and reason' the the mind. This is where dream interpretations come from, often they are the unconscious trying to communicate with the conscious mind, but in consciousness.

The self encompasses both the conscious and the unconscious aspects, the unconscious aspects being what Jung calls "the real psychic facts."

If we don't truly understand ourselves are we ready to understand what's beyond ourselves?

I agree that the ego utilises language, the intellect, reason, intelligence, logic and etc to describe, interact with (and create in), and to get to know self/god/oneness/wholeness, the physical universe and everything in the physical universe.

It makes sense to me that the unconscious/subconscious are just deep hidden (automatic) memories and programming that we are not (normally) conscious of, hence their names-unconscious/subconscious.

A person is able to be conscious/aware of and reprogram the contents/conditioning of his/her unconscious/subconscious by being aware and conscious in and of the physical NOW/present moment. Why? because both the physical universe and the (spirit)ual world are both NOW/the present moment.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

I agree that the ego utilises language, the intellect, reason, intelligence, logic and etc to describe, interact with (and create in), and to get to know self/god/oneness/wholeness, the physical universe and everything in the physical universe.

It makes sense to me that the unconscious/subconscious are just deep hidden (automatic) memories and programming that we are not (normally) conscious of, hence their names-unconscious/subconscious.

A person is able to be conscious/aware of and reprogram the contents/conditioning of his/her unconscious/subconscious by being aware and conscious in and of the physical NOW/present moment. Why? because both the physical universe and the (spirit)ual world are both NOW/the present moment.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

I am speaking from my own personal and non-conditioned inner self-realization or experience. I am not speaking from someone else's or other people's conditioned/subjective inner "self-realization" or "experience".

We can't know self because we are not conscious of what we are not conscious of. The unconscious is called the unconscious for a reason. The ego-mind (since you used that term) can't understand what is far beyond its understanding.

As far as the unconscious is concerned it has its own sense of time, but if you talk to people who have suffered severe trauma as a child you'll find that sometimes their fragmented personality aspects are stuck/frozen in the past, usually at around the time they suffered the trauma. Mine was and I've talk to others who have said the same. Those perceptions of the past traumas affect the future, they comprise of what's known as the Shadow Self.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Did you truly or genuinely self-realize or experience for yourself what you and Jung said about the ego, mind, Chitta, and etc or is it all speculation and maybe even wishful thinking?

What do you consider as not programming? I've going through what you might understand as de-programming, which involved taking my cognitive framework apart piece by piece and examining it. Your cognitive framework is the main factor in the creation of your reality and is 'responsible' for you believing what is programming/conditioning or not.

As for the rest of it, I wanted some kind of verification other than my own subjective reality, as as far as what I said it doesn't come from a better source than one of the founding fathers of psychology. He's done the empirical research and the best I have to go on is my own limited perceptions. And yes, what he says is observable by not just me but many great minds both past and present.

[running]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

The self is the heart feeling of I/I am in the present moment and the self uses ego-mind as a tool/instrument to use language, concepts, metaphors, analogies and other worldly things to describe, experience, express and to get to know itself/god (or whatever you call god) in physical form. God/oneness/wholeness/non-duality/ultimate and absolute reality, literally speaking, not figuratively speaking is the NOW/present moment. Everything that takes place both in the physical universe and in the spirit(ual) world, takes place in the same exact NOW/present moment, thus the physical universe and the spirit(ual) world are one and the same.

i wouldn't personally think of it as now or present thing. if one is open enough the mind can not obstruct bliss and silence.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

We can't know self because we are not conscious of what we are not conscious of. The unconscious is called the unconscious for a reason. The ego-mind (since you used that term) can't understand what is far beyond its understanding.

Perhaps you and I have a different meaning for the self. Self, to me, is the feeling of I/I AM or of being alive, which we are conscious of, as opposed to just thinking I am/me, myself and I inside our heads. We thinking I am/me, myself and I inside our heads is the ego internally describing the self (the feeling of the person being alive/presence in the NOW/present moment).

Originally Posted by Greenslade

As far as the unconscious is concerned it has its own sense of time, but if you talk to people who have suffered severe trauma as a child you'll find that sometimes their fragmented personality aspects are stuck/frozen in the past, usually at around the time they suffered the trauma. Mine was and I've talk to others who have said the same. Those perceptions of the past traumas affect the future, they comprise of what's known as the Shadow Self.

Yes, the unconscious does have it's owns sense of time, from the ego's point of view. That sense of time in the unconscious is repressed or long forgotten memory, emotions, feelings, experiences, beliefs and etc that we store in the unconscious of the past.

Time-the past and the future are nothing but illusions, concepts and habits of the ego. Time is just the earth's movement around the sun. If we human lived on a different planet that rotated around a different sun, time would be different for us then. I mentioned this about time many times on this forum, but people seem to want to ignore and not accept that fact about time. Probably because they want to hold onto their unconscious repressed or long forgotten/unconscious memories, emotions, feelings, experiences, beliefs. People want to give more credit to the illusion of time than it is worth.

When someone or something triggers our unconscious repressed or long forgotten unconscious memory, emotions, feelings, experiences, beliefs in the NOW/present moment, we automatically unconsciously act upon or react upon them, without thinking about them. Just because we are not conscious of them NOW, does not mean we can not (never) be conscious of them NOW!

I have went through childhood trauma, abuse, neglect and I had to fend for myself while I was growing up in foster care.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

What do you consider as not programming? I've going through what you might understand as de-programming, which involved taking my cognitive framework apart piece by piece and examining it. Your cognitive framework is the main factor in the creation of your reality and is 'responsible' for you believing what is programming/conditioning or not.

I consider not programming to be beliefs, feelings, thoughts, experiences and etc one gets/has from being conscious of/in the NOW/present moment. And is the same as reprogramming the unconscious. The NOW/present moment negates the illusion of time (past and future), Take away the illusions of past and the future and you have the NOW/present moment.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by running

i wouldn't personally think of it as now or present thing. if one is open enough the mind can not obstruct bliss and silence.

The NOW/present moment is the bliss/silence you are talking about when the ego is not describing, expressing or getting to know self, the self's surroundings/environment, the physical universe and everything in the physical universe.

We obstruct bliss and silence when we are in the past or future, either consciously or unconsciously and when we are not living in the NOW/present moment. When one is living in the NOW/present moment, one is just conscious/aware of everything, without having any (ego/memory based) thoughts or thinking. Silence and bliss is not about not thinking at all, silence is about not having any thoughts, thinking, beliefs etc based on memories of the past. Silence allows a person to live and to think more inuitively, sharply and clearly. Bliss is an effect of having the experience of living inuitively, sharply and clearly, and silence is the cause.

Why,

Do people type and think as a prophet?

Do they reread what they type??

We get past this comeuppance cloud eventually.: )

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by ant

Why,

Do people type and think as a prophet?

Do they reread what they type??

We get past this comeuppance cloud eventually.: )

Thank you for adding something positive and constructive to the discussion!

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Thank you for adding something positive and constructive to the discussion!

Your welcome real 'eyes'-sarcasm imprinted.

[loopylucid]

Does nature do natural, do humans do humanity? Could be a good poem in there somewhere!

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Does Spirit do Spirituality?

“The temple of the most high begins with the body which houses our life, the essence of our existence. Africans are in bondage today because they approach spirituality through religion provided by foreign invaders and conquerors. We must stop confusing religion and spirituality. Religion is a set of rules, regulations and rituals created by humans, which was suppose to help people grow spiritually. Due to human imperfection religion has become corrupt, political, divisive and a tool for power struggle. Spirituality is not theology or ideology. It is simply a way of life, pure and original as was given by the Most High of Creation. Spirituality is a network linking us to the Most High, the universe, and each other…”
― Haile Selassie I

[running]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

The NOW/present moment is the bliss/silence you are talking about when the ego is not describing, expressing or getting to know self, the self's surroundings/environment, the physical universe and everything in the physical universe.

We obstruct bliss and silence when we are in the past or future, either consciously or unconsciously and when we are not living in the NOW/present moment. When one is living in the NOW/present moment, one is just conscious/aware of everything, without having any (ego/memory based) thoughts or thinking. Silence and bliss is not about not thinking at all, silence is about not having any thoughts, thinking, beliefs etc based on memories of the past. Silence allows a person to live and to think more inuitively, sharply and clearly. Bliss is an effect of having the experience of living inuitively, sharply and clearly, and silence is the cause.

im obstructed by nothing. its just a matter of opening up more and deepening the phenomena.