Who believes that Christ is greater than enlightenment?

[innerlight]

Originally Posted by Honza

Is Christ from Jahveh and therefore greater than an enlightened man? Or is he just one of the self realised beings who walk the earth?

The difference is that Christians believe no man can be God (even if you are self realised) because God is far greater than humans can achieve. Was Christ above and beyond pure consciousness? Was He from The Creator?

Christ was not above or beyond anything. For if he was, that would have defeated his purpose of being here. Contrary to the popular opinion that he came here to atone for, and take away, the sins of Adam and Eve.. He came here, much like the other masters that have walked the earth, to show us what we can become. What we can strive for. He showed us, our "true" human form.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by innerlight

Christ was not above or beyond anything. For if he was, that would have defeated his purpose of being here. Contrary to the popular opinion that he came here to atone for, and take away, the sins of Adam and Eve.. He came here, much like the other masters that have walked the earth, to show us what we can become. What we can strive for. He showed us, our "true" human form.

yeah, he was not above the law. I think he may have even said that.

interesting though that the law includes the possibility of doing the miraculous. IOW assuming we are limited just keeps us limited?

And what was it he said, that we would eventually do even more than he did? The only real price seems to be to give up trying to pretend we are adults, well he said that amon gmany other things that were said.

[Honza]

Originally Posted by innerlight

Christ was not above or beyond anything. For if he was, that would have defeated his purpose of being here. Contrary to the popular opinion that he came here to atone for, and take away, the sins of Adam and Eve.. He came here, much like the other masters that have walked the earth, to show us what we can become. What we can strive for. He showed us, our "true" human form.

Obviously you are not a Christian. Christians do in fact believe that he came to atone for our sins.

[innerlight]

Originally Posted by Honza

Obviously you are not a Christian. Christians do in fact believe that he came to atone for our sins.

I would imagine there are many that call themselves Christians in their heart, and adhere to the teachings of Christ. And choose to live them out, and emulate his life and mission on earth, and as such call themselves Christians. Without also adhering to the teaching that he came to atone for sins.

I mean if you think about it, the premise, is that Adam and Eve sinned, God got angry, punished them, and kicked them out of Eden. The only way to atone for this, was if he took a human form, get himself crucified, and killed. And if you believe this to be true, you get eternal life. If you do not accept or believe it. You get punished with eternal death... If you ask me, the concept seems a little. Silly. Almost like it was something a parent told their 5 year old child, to scare them in to behaving how they told them to.

But back to the topic you posted, no, I do not believe Jesus was above enlightenment. I believe that, if he did exist, he was a way shower. To show us how to live our lives in accordance with divine law, and way of beings. To show us our true nature and our divine purpose of living that out on earth. He told us everything he does we too could do and then some. If he was something above everyone then it would not be possible for us to do what he does and then some.

[Honza]

I think the difference is that many people these days believe that consciousness is enough. To them consciousness is God. But to me God is higher. Something like *conscience* is God IMO. Or *love* - not mere consciousness.

Enlightened people are pure consciousness - but they are not pure conscience or love. THAT is the difference.

[Amilius777]

Ok. First off. I am NOT a Christian.

But I believe Christ was a special entity that did atone for humankind's world karma.

I also believe from my own contemplations and intuition that Jesus was one of many spiritual Masters who walked the earth. You have Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu, St. Francis, Thomas Aquinas, Kabir, Shankara, Guru Nanak, Teresa of Avila, Mother Mary (Mother of Jesus), Zoroaster, just to name a few.

These are highly evolved souls who either incarnated for a specific mission or from many lifetimes became a master and through their teachings and examples left behind an imprint of Christ Consciousness.

I also believe that Humanity as a whole was at a Crossroads 2,000 years ago when the world was transitioning into Pisces. With this astrological change there was going to come about a "new way" of being. When the Bible refers to Christ taking on the sins of those who lived under "the Law from Moses". The LAW doesn't just refer to a period of Jewish History, it refers to mankind's state of consciousness at THAT time. At that time majority of the known world according to the Hebrews was Gentile and pagan. Their collective body remained at a tribal-psychic level. It was trying to brush away the old mentalities and sins while trying to enter into a more spiritual mind.

When Jesus decided to incarnate as a human being since he was an ascended master from on high, he did so in hoping to give these people and humanity at large a New Beginning and a new Model to follow. He lived a perfect life on earth and because of his pure karma he could take upon himself all the hostility, the hate, the abuse, the ignorance that his generation piled against him which was passed unto them from their ancestors. Bad karma follows us from incarnation to incarnation and it is also passed down from our parents and ancestors. The bad karma of Israel was Violence. It is the original sin of man. The abuse of his free will, Abuse itself.
In taking on all these energies during his trial and betrayal he would wipe the slate clean for his Peoples.

Now since Christ became a karmic penance for his people one would ask how did this Master of Love also die for any future sins? Are the evangelicals correct when they say "Just believe and you are saved?" Yes and no. No one can take away your free will and your responsibility. The generations that Christ purified in his sacrificial love still had to go on and continue their journeys. But now they would be purified to start anew and extract from Jesus' teachings as a way out making future mistakes through forgiveness and love. But nowadays most of us have no connection to Palestine 2,000 years ago. Where does this play into our modern world?

It plays in because Christ died showing us the Way out of our karma. No matter where humanity goes or does we can not get away with what we used to get away with. Think of it as when a child does something bad (The previous ages of Humankind) but doesn't know it. But then they finally see as they mature what they did wrong (when the world killed Jesus) and now through that memory of an event the child matures and can not go back to what they used to get away with (New Law). They must measure up to a new way of being or they can not break away from their past mistakes (Jesus as a savior).

Once you realize that Christ's service on behalf of suffering humanity was an example for all future ages to give up backbiting, violence, revenge and replace them with forgiveness, nonjudgmental love, and alleviating suffering; you see why and how he died FOR the sins of mankind. He didn't die taking anything away. He died for something to stop.

He was able to do that because among those Masters I mentioned he had the purest karma among them. He showed that Love is the most powerful force in the universe. He never wavered from it and never fell from love even when he was beaten, pushed, punched, mocked, spat upon, crucified, and abandoned by all those who loved him. He knew he was always Loved, Loved himself, and Loved God. There was no breaking in the Messiah's perfect oneness with God.

[FallingLeaves]

i don't know what to believe any more. I do know that it was written, that not one tittle of the laws would change until the end of heavens and earth; or alternately that it is easier to destroy all of creation than change the laws.

[Jeremy Bong]

It's simple, we can't destroy the truth of how Jesus came to us or on earth when we don't believe or believe him and Creator. And we know that he came is to set example for us , how to love with each other and how he can save us? The coming of the kingdom of God. The heaven that the Creator promised to us.

We don't try to be clever just to believe what he had said because we can't do anything of the sort but he can---to bring us to heaven that reserves to us. We don't get stress when we haven't see the promise to be prevail and manifestation. It's just a time of matter and maybe other will show the world something more.....

[anthony c]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

i don't know what to believe any more. I do know that it was written, that not one tittle of the laws would change until the end of heavens and earth; or alternately that it is easier to destroy all of creation than change the laws.

I am with you FallingLeaves, not sure what to believe myself

How to know: Who is thinking they know the truth or believe this and that is true. and WHAT THE TRUTH REALLY IS. To me it's still a guessing game what is the truth and have to follow it on others words/belief cause i don't have any proof.

All i can do is try to follow what Jesus taught.

[Deidre]

To live in Christ, following Him...surrendering ourselves completely to doing that ...is equal to enlightenment. When I explored Buddhism for a little while, enlightenment was a stripping away of all of the worldly things that keep us down and enslaved...like attachment to money, sex, people, work, etc. I mean, we live in this world but the world shouldn't live in us, I guess is how I interpreted it. Coming back to Christianity, I see enlightenment as carry my cross with Jesus. :)