No merit

[The Cobbler's Apprentice]

Being new here I was trawling around and found a thread on "faith.....either/or" which morphed into our acts of kindness being "filthy rags" in God's sight. (I seem to remember something about "stinking in God's nostrils" but I might be wrong - my memory often plays tricks on me) Others seemed to disagree. I hesitated to join in and offer a Buddhist take as I feared interrupting on a Christian thread.

I find it interesting to transpose such questions into stories from another faith. Bodhidharma, a Buddhist missionary, when he came from the west, met the emperor of China, a man pleased with his many acts of merit. The emperor spoke of them to Bodhidharma and asked what merit he had gained. "None" said Bodhidharma, who was soon off - so goes the story - to stare at a wall for nine years.

The emperor was none too happy about Bodhidharma's assessment. Recently I read an addition to the story, where the emperor is told that Bodhidharma (who he had taken to be a bit of a no hoper) was in fact an incarnation of the Goddess of Compassion, Kuan Yin. Being told this he cried out to have him return but alas was told no power on earth would bring him back. Which has its lessons, not least that even no-hopers can possibly offer wisdom.

[The Cobbler's Apprentice]

So Bodhidharma, being a non-theist, nevertheless has his opinion regarding merit and the possibility of reward. No God of course to view good works as filthy rags, but also no "self" for merit to cling to as some form of "justification".

[sky]

Originally Posted by The Cobbler's Apprentice

So Bodhidharma, being a non-theist, nevertheless has his opinion regarding merit and the possibility of reward. No God of course to view good works as filthy rags, but also no "self" for merit to cling to as some form of "justification".

Conceit rather than 'No Self'.... Merit is very important in Buddhism as it's linked to Karma.... Some see it as 'Karmic Currency'.

[The Cobbler's Apprentice]

Originally Posted by sky123

Conceit rather than 'No Self'.... Merit is very important in Buddhism as it's linked to Karma.... Some see it as 'Karmic Currency'.

Yes, I obviously do not demean any act born of compassion and empathy, I would just see such as "by-products" of "wisdom". When consciously pursued with any sense of gain then we invite the pharisaic mindset.

[ayar415]

Originally Posted by The Cobbler's Apprentice

So Bodhidharma, being a non-theist, nevertheless has his opinion regarding merit and the possibility of reward. No God of course to view good works as filthy rags, but also no "self" for merit to cling to as some form of "justification".

No "self" for merit to cling to is easy to attain. No "self" for operating a bank account is impossible without the FBI knocking on your door.

Is Pure Land a practicable path of human value on this shore or is it a personal spiritual practice beyond the realm of the 5 senses?

[The Cobbler's Apprentice]

Originally Posted by ayar415

Is Pure Land a practicable path of human value on this shore or is it a personal spiritual practice beyond the realm of the 5 senses?

I've certainly found it a practical path. Its zendo is the kitchen sink and its sangha is family and friends; even whoever you meet throughout each day. Fundamentally it is a way of "no-calculation", of trust in Reality-as-is, and therefore even seeking to assess "value" is in a certain sense problematic.

Personally I've never got beyond the 5 senses.

Originally Posted by The Cobbler's Apprentice

I find it interesting to transpose such questions into stories from another faith.

I read a story similar to that one that came from past and between life memories. A very rich man died and was before his spirit guide asking about all the millions he had given to charities and about what merit he would receive from such things and like your story about Bodhidharma, the spirit guide said none. The spirit guide did say however to the man, that one time you were walking down the street and saw someone crying at a bus stop, and you stopped to ask them what was wrong and if you could help did have merit. It showed genuine love and compassion and empathy.

Originally Posted by The Cobbler's Apprentice

The emperor spoke of them to Bodhidharma and asked what merit he had gained. "None" said Bodhidharma,

It's pretty amazing how so many people on earth are billionaires now. And yet 25,000 people die of hunger and starvation everyday here on earth. How do these billionaires feel when they are buying their 4th or 5th mansion? When they are paying 100 million for a yacht? Paying 500,000 for a car? When so many are homeless and hungry?

Living with blinders on I suppose. Like some CEO that is worth billions and he doesn't give his employees bathroom breaks or a decent wage. Not getting merit there. What's that saying, "There but for the grace of God go I." If we can help, we should, and not to get merit, but because we recognize we are all one, because we see ourselves in others. Because we nurture the qualities of compassion and empathy.

With greater power and money comes greater responsibility. Greater Karma for good or bad.

[ayar415]

Originally Posted by AbodhiSky

With greater power and money comes greater responsibility. Greater Karma for good or bad.

That ought to be the way and that was what the Chinese emperor thought and did good by his people. And yet, Bodhiharma (from India) told him: "no merit". Cobbler sees that as his Pure Land Path. Zen is very Japanese and derived from Chinese Chan Buddhism, a Mahayana form of the faith.

I am American and feel as you do about responsibility for the welfare of humanity. It's just my western selfish conditioning, I guess.

[BigJohn]

Merit is a 'funny thing'.

In the East, you see it all the time, but in the West, it does not seem to of much importance.