Getting to know youself

[PMPM71]

Getting to know yourself seems to me like the most important thing individual has to do not only for self but for others. If people knew themselves i think at least 50% of problem in relations would be fixed, but most people just don't know themselves. Either because of environment or bad life examples or fear or just laziness they stumble through life like time bombs not knowing what they want, searching from others to give them purpose, an easy way. Because if you don't know yourself you wont know what you want and that makes you dangerous in relations to others. You make bad decisions, you cant set personal boundaries, you cant be stable or reliable. And the world is as it is because of it.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by PMPM71

Getting to know yourself seems to me like the most important thing individual has to do not only for self but for others. If people knew themselves i think at least 50% of problem in relations would be fixed, but most people just don't know themselves. Either because of environment or bad life examples or fear or just laziness they stumble through life like time bombs not knowing what they want, searching from others to give them purpose, an easy way. Because if you don't know yourself you wont know what you want and that makes you dangerous in relations to others. You make bad decisions, you cant set personal boundaries, you cant be stable or reliable. And the world is as it is because of it.

Well said. I think people want to be fascinated by special things and the promise of a guru, enlightenment, shaman magic and so forth, and are indifferent toward what's actually going on with themselves because it's mundane, problematic and can be hard to face, so off into a fantasy we prefer to go in the perpetual avoidance of one thing and pursuit of another, leaving the mind in a constant tension between aversion and desire.


I don't think people want to see it so they become oblivious to it and thus 'know not what they do'. Self awareness is important. You have to know just what you do, otherwise you end up crucifying Christ figuratively speaking. I can only imagine the sorts of justification such as abusing a spouse and blaming them for making you do it or thrashing the kids out of 'tough love' or cutting off French heads for Allah etc. If people practiced self awareness they could be aware of themselves generating the angst through their own psychological reactivity and be unable to blame, justify or use other deceptions to project their own self-generated misery onto others.


However, that's what we do, so little wonder everyone is wounded. It is a cycle. In The Buddhist philosophy it is said that the experience is a projection of mind that manifests through the kammic cycle. Kamma is the volition that arises from ignorance, because we overlook what we are actually doing and how our psychological reactivity is harmful to ourselves and hurts others. If we really understood that we'd take responsibility for what we do - but that fundamentally depends on self awareness.

[winter light]

Originally Posted by Gem

I don't think people want to see it so they become oblivious to it and thus 'know not what they do'. Self awareness is important. You have to know just what you do, otherwise you end up crucifying Christ figuratively speaking. I can only imagine the sorts of justification such as abusing a spouse and blaming them for making you do it or thrashing the kids out of 'tough love' or cutting off French heads for Allah etc. If people practiced self awareness they could be aware of themselves generating the angst through their own psychological reactivity and be unable to blame, justify or use other deceptions to project their own self-generated misery onto others.

So we have a list of human failings. I have lots of emotional reactions that come up in this moment. They tell a lot about my feelings and give clues how I may react in the future. I know that I am not my reactions. But I am definitely the one who is having the reactions and they should be addressed. Whether it is fear or anger or something else, I need to deal with this reaction in this moment in order to stop the suffering in it's tracks. Otherwise I know that I'll pass the suffering along to others.

For example I see "tough love". I have a hard time with this because for me because I see it as cruel and a betrayal. A hasty shortcut that is pretending to help and care but does not. But as long as I consider myself justified in holding on to contempt for such an idea I'm leaving myself vulnerable to passing on the suffering to others in the future. My responsibility now is to keep that from happening.

If I witness and feel my feelings and diffuse the reaction right now, then I put a grain of sand in the "less suffering" bucket for the future. If I ignore my feelings and stuff them, the grain goes into the "continued suffering" bucket. If I work myself up into a state of anger the grain goes into the "more suffering" bucket. With awareness, I have a choice.

After stepping back a bit and taking a couple of breaths I realize my expectations are out of line with reality. "Tough love" is usually from someone overwhelmed at their wits end and feeling out of control. And usually just passing the pain along that was done to them. And they really do not have control of their reactions. And it is not my place to judge them because I am not in their shoes. So I can have some compassion instead of judgement.

From a state of compassion I may be in a better place to talk sense into them because I could not be coming at them in a threatening way. I also believe, though others may disagree, that this effect can transcend time and space. That my shift to non-judgement has an immediate effect on the world. Disarming those who are continuing that specific suffering that I previously held in judgement. So I am able to reduce the energy of suffing in the world by way of awareness and release of my own feelings.

Originally Posted by Gem

However, that's what we do, so little wonder everyone is wounded. It is a cycle. In The Buddhist philosophy it is said that the experience is a projection of mind that manifests through the kammic cycle. Kamma is the volition that arises from ignorance, because we overlook what we are actually doing and how our psychological reactivity is harmful to ourselves and hurts others. If we really understood that we'd take responsibility for what we do - but that fundamentally depends on self awareness.

Change definitely happens in cycles. And there is some sort of suffering due to the repeated grief of adjusting to changes from one moment to the next could be considered the base life suffering. But wounded and ignorance and kamma are often based on abstractions that cloud the understanding because they attach formed ideas like permanence and judgements, to transient phenomena that could instead have many interpretations.

For example, you could consider kamma and volition to be relative to a moral standard. In that case there is judgement based on right and wrong. So we say "good" when we are able to manage our reactions and "bad" when we cannot. But suppose we have less control over the present moment than we realize. And we realize that we are falling short in the moment. In that case, is the judgement going to be fluid enough to adjust to that new awareness? With a healthy response? Or are we going to slide toward a fixation of self doubt? Transforming a physical or emotional limitation into a permanent idea or self identity. That would continue the suffering.

I guess that is the problem I have is that philosophy inevitability leads into ideas of morality that then distract from reality. Or so it seems. Actually, I think the trick is when moral judgement actually preceeds the philosophy. As pre-existing fear and doubt. And then the philosophy is a reactive attempt to correct the doubt in order to feel safe. But being made of pure ideas and out of touch with reality, it cannot offer any real safety. Philosophy pretends to have final answers. But impermanence makes this impossible.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by winter light

So we have a list of human failings. I have lots of emotional reactions that come up in this moment. They tell a lot about my feelings and give clues how I may react in the future. I know that I am not my reactions. But I am definitely the one who is having the reactions and they should be addressed. Whether it is fear or anger or something else, I need to deal with this reaction in this moment in order to stop the suffering in it's tracks. Otherwise I know that I'll pass the suffering along to others.

Yes, I'm sure we all have such tendencies, but to be conscious of it enables more mindful responses rather than being compelled.

For example I see "tough love". I have a hard time with this because for me because I see it as cruel and a betrayal. A hasty shortcut that is pretending to help and care but does not. But as long as I consider myself justified in holding on to contempt for such an idea I'm leaving myself vulnerable to passing on the suffering to others in the future. My responsibility now is to keep that from happening.

I think 'tough love' is basically a lie, so I'm wary of that sort of thing generally. Yep, holding contempt is a kind of ill-will which ends up being exerted on others. It's not easy to resolve such grudges, but if we are conscious of them they do seem futile, so they tend to lose momentum and dissolve in the light of conscious awareness.

If I witness and feel my feelings and diffuse the reaction right now, then I put a grain of sand in the "less suffering" bucket for the future. If I ignore my feelings and stuff them, the grain goes into the "continued suffering" bucket. If I work myself up into a state of anger the grain goes into the "more suffering" bucket. With awareness, I have a choice.

Indeed. With self awareness you can see the function of how suffering is generated and upon seeing it's what you do, you can cease to do that.

After stepping back a bit and taking a couple of breaths I realize my expectations are out of line with reality. "Tough love" is usually from someone overwhelmed at their wits end and feeling out of control. And usually just passing the pain along that was done to them. And they really do not have control of their reactions. And it is not my place to judge them because I am not in their shoes. So I can have some compassion instead of judgement.

True. Understanding such a situation is likely to produce compassion. rather than judgment.

From a state of compassion I may be in a better place to talk sense into them because I could not be coming at them in a threatening way. I also believe, though others may disagree, that this effect can transcend time and space. That my shift to non-judgement has an immediate effect on the world. Disarming those who are continuing that specific suffering that I previously held in judgement. So I am able to reduce the energy of suffing in the world by way of awareness and release of my own feelings.

I think that's right. The compassionate response changes the world and it would diffuse aggression. If it doesn't, you can still take an aggressor out if necessary with no ill-feelings... so I'm not a 'turn the other cheek' kinda guy... but I am a 'know not what they do' type.

Change definitely happens in cycles. And there is some sort of suffering due to the repeated grief of adjusting to changes from one moment to the next could be considered the base life suffering. But wounded and ignorance and kamma are often based on abstractions that cloud the understanding because they attach formed ideas like permanence and judgements, to transient phenomena that could instead have many interpretations.

For example, you could consider kamma and volition to be relative to a moral standard. In that case there is judgement based on right and wrong. So we say "good" when we are able to manage our reactions and "bad" when we cannot. But suppose we have less control over the present moment than we realize. And we realize that we are falling short in the moment. In that case, is the judgement going to be fluid enough to adjust to that new awareness? With a healthy response? Or are we going to slide toward a fixation of self doubt? Transforming a physical or emotional limitation into a permanent idea or self identity. That would continue the suffering.

In Buddhist philosophy, the kamma cycle is perpetuated by volition, and volition is categorised into goodwill and ill-will. Goodwill produces positive outcomes and ill-will creates conditions conducive to suffering. Hence, good kamma and bad kamma refer to goodwill and ill-wii. If something bad happens to b=me like I am abused for example, that's the agressors bad kamma. Not my kamma. It only becomes my kamma through my reactivity to being abused. If I react too adversely I generate ill-will. If I react compassionately I generate good-wiil. That's my kamma.


Reactions elicits will. If you cease reactivity volition also ceases... which is why people are not prepared to cease their reactivity. However, if you cease the secondary reaction to experience, and rather than perpetuating an individual will act in accord with the wider movement of the universe, you will be far more productive sans the resistance inherent to aversion and the craving of desire as you 'surrender'. Yes 'surrender' is a popular spiritual ideal, but if you think about it and inquire as to what specifically is surrendered...

I guess that is the problem I have is that philosophy inevitability leads into ideas of morality that then distract from reality. Or so it seems. Actually, I think the trick is when moral judgement actually preceeds the philosophy. As pre-existing fear and doubt. And then the philosophy is a reactive attempt to correct the doubt in order to feel safe. But being made of pure ideas and out of touch with reality, it cannot offer any real safety. Philosophy pretends to have final answers. But impermanence makes this impossible.

Yes. There are no answers. The mind cannot reduce the subject of the topis to acquirable knowledge because that held in the mind is already stagnating whereas the subject here is vibrant and alive.

[winter light]

Originally Posted by Gem

...
In Buddhist philosophy, the kamma cycle is perpetuated by volition, and volition is categorised into goodwill and ill-will. Goodwill produces positive outcomes and ill-will creates conditions conducive to suffering. Hence, good kamma and bad kamma refer to goodwill and ill-wii. If something bad happens to b=me like I am abused for example, that's the agressors bad kamma. Not my kamma. It only becomes my kamma through my reactivity to being abused. If I react too adversely I generate ill-will. If I react compassionately I generate good-wiil. That's my kamma.

Thanks for the explaination. It is clearly stated but took me a while to translate into my world view because I organize things differently. And the word volition gives me a mental block for some reason so your dividing into goodwill and ill-will was helpful. I understand how you see kamma but I relate to it in a different way. In general I relate to Buddhist concepts in a very intuitive way so it takes a lot of effort for me to work though the terminology.

The way I organize the world is that I come from a center. After a lot of thought I decided there are three things that are owned by me. My circumstance, my perspective, and my intent. The reason why I own them is because they are relative to my center in a unique way where ultimately I am responsibile for what goes on and no one else. Everything else is a shared experience with boundaries where I interrelate with others and we share ownership. So my model for kamma is that I focus attention on what I am responsible for relative to my center and beyond the boundaries it is, at least in the local sense, none of my business really. Though I may consider it in order to better understand others motivations if it helps me to resolve my inner conflicts.

This also involves what I call shared kamma. This is just the world suffering patterns that get passed around between everyone. It crosses over boundaries and we're all experiencing it daily. The whole affects us and our intent and reactions affect the whole. Same also I would call this "original sin" in the Christian context. So it is less about my kamma vs their kamma, but more our kamma and how I can relate to it in order to reduce suffering. Knowing that whatever I can contribute for benefit of the whole will ultimately benefit me also.

Originally Posted by Gem

Reactions elicits will. If you cease reactivity volition also ceases... which is why people are not prepared to cease their reactivity. However, if you cease the secondary reaction to experience, and rather than perpetuating an individual will act in accord with the wider movement of the universe, you will be far more productive sans the resistance inherent to aversion and the craving of desire as you 'surrender'. Yes 'surrender' is a popular spiritual ideal, but if you think about it and inquire as to what specifically is surrendered...

Yes I understand the concept of surrender very well. And it seems to divide the people into those who get it completely versus those who do not get it at all with no one in the middle. Though in my experience I've only had little success seeing a direct relationship between my surrender and my well being. I feel out of control most of the time. So surrender for me also requires a lot of right action for it's own sake, and I cannot rely on attachment to outcome in the future. Kind of a blessing in disguise but that does not make it any easier.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by winter light

Thanks for the explaination. It is clearly stated but took me a while to translate into my world view because I organize things differently. And the word volition gives me a mental block for some reason so your dividing into goodwill and ill-will was helpful. I understand how you see kamma but I relate to it in a different way. In general I relate to Buddhist concepts in a very intuitive way so it takes a lot of effort for me to work though the terminology.

Sure. I tend to steer away form the typical terminology, because much of it is its in Pali, the language spoken by Buddha at the time. My narrative is quite different to the one which is typically repeated, and volition is an ambiguous term which alludes to intent, so good-will and ill-will is a dichotomy that contrasts some sort of meaning... though it is broad concept. I would usually define volition as any urge to move the mind, However, the philosophy isn't knowledge as much as it is the manner in which things are understood by you. People think the philosophy has a 'true meaning', however, knowing in this context is either immediate and subjective and/or an irrevocable insight. The 'learning' is more like insights that are personally transformative rather than an acquisition of something that you know.

The way I organize the world is that I come from a center. After a lot of thought I decided there are three things that are owned by me. My circumstance, my perspective, and my intent. The reason why I own them is because they are relative to my center in a unique way where ultimately I am responsibile for what goes on and no one else. Everything else is a shared experience with boundaries where I interrelate with others and we share ownership. So my model for kamma is that I focus attention on what I am responsible for relative to my center and beyond the boundaries it is, at least in the local sense, none of my business really. Though I may consider it in order to better understand others motivations if it helps me to resolve my inner conflicts.

I think that is a good idea, and I may just take a leaf our of that book :)

This also involves what I call shared kamma. This is just the world suffering patterns that get passed around between everyone. It crosses over boundaries and we're all experiencing it daily.

That's pretty much it... At a fundamental level, interpersonal ill-will is the urge to make another person react adversely, and adverse reactions illicit ill-will, so it tends to spread. Good-will is different in the sense that it stems from the nature of the infinite outpouring. As you said earlier, a loving-kindness response can effectively diffuse malice, agro and such forms of ill-will not only with regards to others, but also oneself.


This pertains to my other thread on purification in that, usually some sort of bad feeling comes up and we react adversely to it, and we are under the impression that the bad feeling should go away and we should have a good feeling instead. That tension between the aversion toward the bad feeling and the desire for a good feeling is what 'suffering' refers to. This implies that suffering is what you generate through psychological reactivity toward your own feelings. Hence you take responsibility for that, and no longer blame anyone else for making you suffer... as a result, old grudges start to wash away due to being based in fallacy, and that is transformative... So I hope this almost articulates the kind of 'learning' which is isn't knowledge per-se, but insight or wisdom which is simultaneously a discovery and a breakthrough.

Same also I would call this "original sin" in the Christian context. So it is less about my kamma vs their kamma, but more our kamma and how I can relate to it in order to reduce suffering. Knowing that whatever I can contribute for benefit of the whole will ultimately benefit me also. Yes I understand the concept of surrender very well. And it seems to divide the people into those who get it completely versus those who do not get it at all with no one in the middle. Though in my experience I've only had little success seeing a direct relationship between my surrender and my well being. I feel out of control most of the time. So surrender for me also requires a lot of right action for it's own sake, and I cannot rely on attachment to outcome in the future. Kind of a blessing in disguise but that does not make it any easier.

Interesting. I think I'm a bit mind blown right now... But the topic of surrender is sooo interesting.