The Cult of The Harmless Man

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Altair

You are a groupthinker and an intersectionalist. That is your problem. Individual men and women can be victims or not. Throughout history it's always been a minority of men that had the power. Most men were/are disposable. ''Reading history will tell you that.''

No this is reality. Misogyny is real. Females grow up with it. It begins in school. From the ridiculous rules placed on females and what they wear so as not to 'inflame' the boys by showing off their shoulders, clavicles or knees. Discrimination is real. Inequality of the sexes is real.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by ArcticWolf

When I was around my 20's, I was drafted to do a military service.

That is a tiny, infinitesimal drop in the bucket though. Women experience discrimination from an early age. We experience street harassment and are told that it's no big deal to be sexually harassed by strangers on the street. We experience sexual harassment in school and most of the time nothing is done about it. It goes on and on and on. The US has the draft still too. Guys are required to sign up. I agree that it is wrong. The draft should be done away with everywhere, or it should be as it is in Israel and in other countries, both male and females should be required to serve in the military for a required number of years. And women are not equally represented in management in corporations or in government. And definitely not in high paying jobs. It's getting better in the computer field but there is still a long, long way to go before women ever gain pay parity or parity in all fields.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Traveler

Discrimination is real.

I don't think anyone here is disputing this.

But it is also real that there is a lot of individual variation among men and women. Many men aren't powerful or privileged. The average middle class girl will grow up with more opportunity and is more likely to develop the know-how on how to achieve in a developed country and how to be healthy than the average worker class boy.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Traveler

From the ridiculous rules placed on females and what they wear so as not to 'inflame' the boys by showing off their shoulders, clavicles or knees.

And I'm not allowed to wear shorts at work. Women are allowed to wear comfy clothing and skirts. Why? Because people on both sides, but women more so, find male legs offensive and not neat and suave. I can't show my knees and shoulders either.

[ArcticWolf]

Originally Posted by Traveler

That is a tiny, infinitesimal drop in the bucket though.

Your clear-cut "women the 100% victims and men the 100% powerful oppressors" world view is so cartoonishly simplistic that if it weren't so hateful, it would be adorable.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Traveler

gain pay parity or parity in all fields.

I have not read the research if there is any, but was thinking just maybe, such large numbers of women want to be the nurturing parent and play humanitarian social roles that the distribution of labour between men and women already represents what they respectively want. Maybe having equal numbers of men and women on exectutive boards, for example, does not represent the wants of individuals in society and it's wrong to try to force such metrics on them.

Sexual harassment is a mire because, to be realistic, a guy who likes a girl is probably going to take his shot, and I don't know exactly know what type of advance or in which circumstance that's gong to become 'sexual harassment'. Women also want to be attractive to men and be acknowledged for it, so aside from the extremely overt, harassment is quite a foggy area. True enough to say, though, it's not a problem for men as it is for women.

I was roped in to it once. I just made a witty comment in a group that was a little inuendo. I was 'told' that could be 'sexual harassment', but a girl could make a similar joke no problem. I was there when one of our sales girls said to our manager "I'd do dirty things for a sale right now", and we thought that was hilarious. You had to be there.

[FallingLeaves]

unfortunately, fighting with people who love fighting for the sake of fighting and will do anything just to be able to say 'i win' regardless of the human fallout, doesn't further the cause of women either. But I suppose it is in vogue for women to act like men in the name of some favored way of being called 'equal'? Christianity even lauds that behavior. So why not willingly fight a battle you don't want on top of everything else you never wanted to have to deal with in the first place?

Problem is you get used to doing whatever it is you decide to be doing, so even if you somehow win you will want to keep going along those lines... you'll be driven to pick another fight and peace will never come.

Only way to avoid being in a fight, in the end, is simply to know not to get in a fight in the first place.

That isn't something society teaches though...

Anyway, one of the posters around here had some choice words to say about the kind of equality you propose a few years ago. I think her distress was along the lines of 'but if you want me to be like a boy so that I can be the equal to boys, it means I will eventually have to give in and give up all the feminine aspects I love about myself. And who wants that?'.

as far as conscription, it takes moxie to realize that there is a very real choice herein after all. If you don't like fighting, in fact dislike it with enough zest, you might choose to take on the social consequences of choosing not to raise your own hand against others. As bad as those consequences seem, if fighting ever seems too awful to bear you might decide to not take up a weapon just because others demand it of you, to not use your own willpower to further the gains of others, and take your lumps instead.

But that is not the kind of thing that it is in vogue to do. And in the end it is still a difficult choice to make, because we have all have been 'trained' to not want to lose whatever it is we think we've got. Just to gain things a lot of other people are saying are inherently distasteful.

[ArcticWolf]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

as far as conscription, it takes moxie to realize that there is a very real choice herein after all. If you don't like fighting, in fact dislike it with enough zest, you might choose to take on the social consequences of choosing not to raise your own hand against others.

For the record, if it was a war of national self-defense, I'd do my duty without questioning. I just hope that if it happens, it'll be for a good cause.

[ArcticWolf]

Originally Posted by Altair

But it is also real that there is a lot of individual variation among men and women. Many men aren't powerful or privileged.

Historically speaking, the old world didn't even think in terms of "rights" and "equality". It was all about the power pyramid and what kind of duties each individual has in the order. In the old world, everyone was somebody else's servant. Wives were the servants of their husbands, the husbands were the servants of their feodal lords. The feodal lords were the servants of the king. The historical inequality of the sexes was one building block of a world, where inequality was the norm.

It is true that if we make an "all else equal" - comparison, historically men have typically been ranked higher in the order than women. But the real world is not an "all else equal" - case. There are lots of other factors in play, simultaneously. Even in the Middle Ages, it was better life to be an aristocrat woman than it was to be a male servant or a slave.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by ArcticWolf

Historically speaking, the old world didn't even think in terms of "rights" and "equality". It was all about the power pyramid and what kind of duties each individual has in the order

Nice. Good to see a deeper context to the discussion .