It isn't ONE Self it is Self that is all there is ..

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey,

Yes this is all I am doing .. and I agree that it is how we need to communicate if we are going to have open and honest conversations .

I have had disagreements with you, Slade, Mikey and many other's but they don't insult me or dodge questions or make me out to be the bad guy or the arrogant guy simply for questioning their beliefs .

What the heck is that all about .. Where does that come from, simply for asking a bloody question .

Where that doesn't come from is from where it needs to come from, like you say, from the centre of ourselves . From the truth of oneself . Or from where we know of ourselves .

Not from this place of ugliness of wanting to put other's down, simply because it puts a question mark on their beliefs .

There is a lesson there to be learn't but some ignore what is true and would rather keep up the pretence rather than accept something about themselves .

It's hard talking, and shooting from the hip but I don't care if it doesn't make me popular lol .

x daz x

Hey Dazza I agree there's no call for hatefulness in our exchanges. No unkind words from my end...I can at least guarantee that much

I think that some of us are at a certain place on our journey and we absolutely really just cannot have a deeper conversation beyond a certain point that is not beautifully, wholly, and simply authentic. It's like having a choice between junk food and farm-to-fork. You simply cannot willingly take the junk food...it will literally never happen going forward. It's painful to endure the alternative.

Others are not there and it's sometime not because they lack or do not crave authenticity. Some do lack the desire...that's where society has encouraged many to live. For others, they may still be exploring paths and ideas within our various traditions, and figuring out how their own voice aligns or emerges from there.

I would say it's always good to put your truths and your voice out there. Many may not get it or may not resonate with it, because they are at a different place on their path. If they mock you or are unkind, I'm so sorry...that is unfortunate and of course you deserve better...but that says more about where they are than anything else.

But many WILL resonate with your questions and your desire for authentic communication...and that is how we move the conversation and the saga of our humanity along

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

That little spiel is just to keep myself grounded. I can honestly say the exchanges on this forum have greatly contributed to my growth and I wouldn't be where I am otherwise.

So I sincerely thank everyone for participating, even those who push back. It's an opportunity to step back, re-examine and contemplate what I post. A sanity-check, if you will. We all need that from time to time.

There is articulateness, precision and accuracy but of course there is also clear positive energy and engagement, kindness.. We are all learning and learners and I reckon that people like you and me - we will get pushback when we forget. Unfortunately or fortunately you can't go back anymore in the Matrix

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Well, there certainly isn't any harm in the dangling carrot to help us through difficult times, but there certainly is something in that where peeps don't want to address self issues ..

Putting things off in the long run doesn't magically remove aspects of self that remain lol .. Brushing things under the carpet just leaves a mound that gets bigger and bigger, big enough to one day trip you up

Yes...so many folks put things off for not just one lifetime, but several...
My feeling is, it's among the hardest things you'll ever do...but there's no time like the present to begin to get to know yourself more deeply, and to begin to work on all those buried (or half-buried) issues.

Often, the issues of this lifetime are not even just about this one lifetime.
And now we're talking a right mountain of stuff, way more than just a mound Well, perhaps we think it's just a little mound till we realise we just papered over the mountaintop with that little carpet, hahaha...

Hillel said it is not yours to complete the work (in its entirety) but neither are you free to abandon it. I.e., we each have our part to do which is critical and which is only ours to do. But he did not just mean the work of humanity and of society...he surely also meant our own inner work, and completing all that we can do and are meant to strive to do in any given lifetime.

No one say's it's easy and I think the way of the world of late brings to the fore plenty to look at, and integration happens naturally where we kinda embrace the good and the bad self aspects .. it kinda smoothes out and blends or dissolves .. and maybe certain conditionings arise and fall every now and then and that's okay isn't it .

It's to recognise these traits ... I know of late when I am exhausted with work and travelling and the stresses of the day I can be overwhelmed with grief of my parents passing over of late, but I know that after I get home, have a run, do some meditation and self healing I am seeing differently ..

It's about getting to know these patterns and being okay with how things arise and for why they do .

I agree...self reflection, mindfulness, ownership, and emotional and spiritual maturity in general...these things you discuss are at the core of our journey...along with the relational aspects I and Greenslade and perhaps others have mentioned. Sending you much love and light to support you during this mad, transitional time for humanity as whole when you are also grieving for the passing of your folks

There is a line drawn however when how you feel impacts on other's in ways where other's are upset in someway because of one's expression for whatever reason .

When these things are not self addressed through honesty then we have more than a mound to trip us up we have a mountain to climb .

That's when I dare say one has their eyes firmly on the carrot and perhaps nothing much else, for it's too difficult to envisage getting over it -

x daz x

Agreed...Above all, it's about being and doing authentic love to one another, and certainly it's about doing no harm. It's about lovingkindness and honouring the humanity of all those we meet.

And particularly IMO this includes tending to our circle of belonging, who provide refuge and affirmation. Extending love and kindness to those souls to whom we are closest and whose presence is a blessing and a support...our beloved family, friends, partners, and communities...and our fellow travellers and soul family...

Much love and light to you, Daz
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hey there stranger

Hey there GS yes..I am still alive though I will be glad to see 2020 wind down, I won't lie...I have come to see the grueling nature of it all as a revelation (of many obvious things which our societies have long denied)...so, the question becomes, at what point do we accept the reality of our humanity...and of Gaia's biology and chemistry and meteorology and epidemiology? When do humanity learn to accept that we must learn to respect all that is, as well as learning to respect one another?

I've had a couple of instances when my consciousness was set apart from everything else, there was just my conscious all on its lonesome. It was dark but a comfortable kind of dark but I guess that was just 'translation' for the mind. There was nothing but my consciousness to be conscious of, no external input and nothing internal - not even body, mind, memories..... There was just an experience of I am, nothing else.

Whenever I hear variations on this, I think of the midrash (stories) of Buddha...I don't know what they're officially called. But he was known to say "know the emptiness (transcendent Isness, Oneness, etc) but do not dwell there". Because we are meant to dwell with the immanence of existence, i.e., what is present in this moment...including what we call the "divine" or pure or enduring aspects.

There's the story of how God was sitting there, all alone in the night. Then he asked the question that changed the Universe forever - he asked "Who am I?" In order to find out he split himself in two and here we are today. Now while it's not a very Spiritually technical tale it gives me a lot of understanding.

Exactly

As Alan Watts put it, "If you didn't have en echo you wouldn't know you're alive." When I 'didn't have an echo' alive wasn't the word I would have used. This is a Journey to Self after all, and there are things far beyond the spiritual ideologies and theologies that we have yet to discover.
That's a tale of the Ahamkara and the Persona and taking away the masks, and being honest about what's behind the facades and narrative. Often our greatest weaknesses are our greatest strengths and sometimes our highest Spirituality is to be human after all.

Yes...agreed. Our strengths and weaknesses (or vice-versa, who's to say?)...these comprise our unique self, and that uniqueness of self and mind and voice and action...makes all of us vital, priceless, and irreplaceable.

And to be fully human in this moment...that is the work of a lifetime. Or many lifetimes. And the work is never done but always in process of becoming. Per Hillel, as I said to Daz.

For many - me included - that's the highest mountain to climb.

Well said...I feel it's rushing toward humanity in the best possible way. I've got a more solid footing on the path over the last few years, so perhaps I'll add more later.

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Whenever I hear variations on this, I think of the midrash (stories) of Buddha...I don't know what they're officially called. But he was known to say "know the emptiness (transcendent Isness, Oneness, etc) but do not dwell there". Because we are meant to dwell with the immanence of existence, i.e., what is present in this moment...including what we call the "divine" or pure or enduring aspects.

In essence I'm not saying anything substantially different. Emptiness, Void, No Self, Sat-Chit-Ananda. It's all the same as far as I can tell.

It's self-revealing and self-evident, however we just don't recognize and understand It for what It is. From my perspective meditation and knowledge are two paths to recognition and understanding.

Vivekananda admonished against closeting one's self in a cave in the Himalayas or hut on the Ganges immersed in Samadhi as the end-all and be-all. In essence it's squandering the precious gift of sentient existence. He advocated engagement, devotion and service and I concur.

We can call physical reality interbeing, Divine Play, transactional reality. Again, all the same as far as I can tell. The only difference navigating that reality is whether the sentient being "knows" that self-revealing and self-evident substrate and Its significance, and that's a result of knowledge and practice, however many lifetimes it might take.

I've experienced what Greenslade has and in two distinct and different ways. One is in deep meditation. I'll not pretend it's a given each and every time I sit, and even when I do "find" that space it's generally short periods, a minute or two here, five minutes there and not often but often enough. And then there are the times, infrequent as they are, where it's a substantial portion of a sitting, and that's when it seems like the timer goes off just after I start sitting.

The other way I've experienced it, and it was just once when I was four months old, was an OBE. I outlined it in an above post so I'm not going to repeat it here, but let's just say there was only observing and "I" wasn't infant me. It was a subject-object relationship.

Finally there's the experience I had October of last year that lasted several weeks. It began with a powerful precognition that left me shaken to the core and evolved into what I can only describe as an experience of One in all and all in One and it was profound. The most amazing aspect of it was looking into another's eyes and "knowing" without a shadow of doubt "I" was looking right back, to the point of expecting a knowing wink. It sealed the deal for me and beyond any doubt. It's what brought me here.

Anyway this, and in the context of Advaita Vedanta, is what colors my perception that Consciousness is all-pervasive and Its seat is not of mind, however mind is keenly aware of It now. It's now revealed and self-evident.

To be honest, and I even posted this somewhere in this back-and-forth discussion, I think we are trying to relate the exact same thing. The "problem" is the thinking and language is colored by individuated nature, nurture and path, not to mention it's attempting into put the Ineffable to language. Of course I can say "I just am or we just are" but that is kind of a riddle and doesn't make for very interesting conversation.

EDIT: The part about not closeting one's self away in isolation and Samadhi and instead engaging the world... “One who sees inaction in action, and action in inaction, is intelligent among men, and he is in the transcendental position, although engaged in all sorts of activities.” (Bhagavad Gita 4.18)

It's a matter of Karma. Krishna instructed Arjuna if he had a clear obligation for action and instead chose inaction, that is in fact action resulting in Karma.

[muffin]

Originally Posted by ant

Nice,but perhaps i should rephrase that and say ' I get more pleasure at watching capeweed over grow my lawn',as my lawn is covered in capeweed.

All good though,i'm slowly planting amongst it,rather than hell bent on eradication.

People have this misconception,but when you see the positives in capeweed,you then lose sight of the negatives.; )

Good afternoon ant

I find nature has a way of showing you these things

A bit of colour in otherwise, a bland landscape

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

In essence I'm not saying anything substantially different. Emptiness, Void, No Self, Sat-Chit-Ananda. It's all the same as far as I can tell.

It's self-revealing and self-evident, however we just don't recognize and understand It for what It is. From my perspective meditation and knowledge are two paths to recognition and understanding.

Vivekananda admonished against closeting one's self in a cave in the Himalayas or hut on the Ganges immersed in Samadhi as the end-all and be-all. In essence it's squandering the precious gift of sentient existence. He advocated engagement, devotion and service and I concur.

We can call physical reality interbeing, Divine Play, transactional reality. Again, all the same as far as I can tell. The only difference navigating that reality is whether the sentient being "knows" that self-revealing and self-evident substrate and Its significance, and that's a result of knowledge and practice, however many lifetimes it might take.

I've experienced what Greenslade has and in two distinct and different ways. One is in deep meditation. I'll not pretend it's a given each and every time I sit, and even when I do "find" that space it's generally short periods, a minute or two here, five minutes there and not often but often enough. And then there are the times, infrequent as they are, where it's a substantial portion of a sitting, and that's when it seems like the timer goes off just after I start sitting.

The other way I've experienced it, and it was just once when I was four months old, was an OBE. I outlined it in an above post so I'm not going to repeat it here, but let's just say there was only observing and "I" wasn't infant me. It was a subject-object relationship.

Finally there's the experience I had October of last year that lasted several weeks. It began with a powerful precognition that left me shaken to the core and evolved into what I can only describe as an experience of One in all and all in One and it was profound. The most amazing aspect of it was looking into another's eyes and "knowing" without a shadow of doubt "I" was looking right back, to the point of expecting a knowing wink. It sealed the deal for me and beyond any doubt. It's what brought me here.

Anyway this, and in the context of Advaita Vedanta, is what colors my perception that Consciousness is all-pervasive and Its seat is not of mind, however mind is keenly aware of It now. It's now revealed and self-evident.

To be honest, and I even posted this somewhere in this back-and-forth discussion, I think we are trying to relate the exact same thing. The "problem" is the thinking and language is colored by individuated nature, nurture and path, not to mention it's attempting into put the Ineffable to language. Of course I can say "I just am or we just are" but that is kind of a riddle and doesn't make for very interesting conversation.

EDIT: The part about not closeting one's self away in isolation and Samadhi and instead engaging the world... “One who sees inaction in action, and action in inaction, is intelligent among men, and he is in the transcendental position, although engaged in all sorts of activities.” (Bhagavad Gita 4.18)

It's a matter of Karma. Krishna instructed Arjuna if he had a clear obligation for action and instead chose inaction, that is in fact action resulting in Karma.

You do not seem to be conscious/aware through self-realization that the self is a person's individual, but not separate point of (self) reference and is the one that experiences through ego-mind. You will never experience and self-realize oneness/wholeness for yourself until you stop thinking/believing non-duality and duality are separate from each other: It is best to just forget about the non-duality/duality concept altogether! Non-duality/duality and other concepts, metaphors and analogies that directly separate, divide and create fragments of oneness/wholeness do not matter.

The self is atman, atman is the physical manistfestation of brahman/oneness/wholeness/god. Atman, thus brahman/oneness/wholeness/god experiences, interacts with (creates in), expresses, and learns about itself in physical form in the the physical universe/existence/creation aka the physical NOW/present moment through language. Keeping in the context above, the self/atman is the source of consciousness and awareness while in physical form.

Language is made up of words, words create images in the ego-mind, these images become a thing as thoughts in the ego-mind, the ego-mind creates everything, including all physical objects in the physical universe/NOW or present moment with the images/thoughts ego-mind has. Ego-mind uses language to create all concepts, metaphors, analogies, dreams, illusions, myths, biases, fear, etc etc to try to describe what ego-mind does not know, and/or a person's ego-mind not being able to describe what ego-mind is directly experiencing.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

You do not seem to be conscious/aware through self-realization that the self is a person's individual, but not separate point of (self) reference and is the one that experiences through ego-mind. You will never experience and self-realize oneness/wholeness for yourself until you stop thinking/believing non-duality and duality are separate from each other: It is best to just forget about the non-duality/duality concept altogether! Non-duality/duality and other concepts, metaphors and analogies that directly separate, divide and create fragments of oneness/wholeness do not matter.The self is atman, atman is the physical manistfestation of brahman/oneness/wholeness/god. Atman, thus brahman/oneness/wholeness/god experiences, interacts with (creates in), expresses, and learns about itself in physical form in the the physical universe/existence/creation aka the physical NOW/present moment through language. Keeping in the context above, the self/atman is the source of consciousness and awareness while in physical form.

Language is made up of words, words create images in the ego-mind, these images become a thing as thoughts in the ego-mind, the ego-mind creates everything, including all physical objects in the physical universe/NOW or present moment with the images/thoughts ego-mind has. Ego-mind uses language to create all concepts, metaphors, analogies, dreams, illusions, myths, biases, fear, etc etc to try to describe what ego-mind does not know, and/or a person's ego-mind not being able to describe what ego-mind is directly experiencing.

If the subtle body (mind) is not Atman, neither is the gross body (physical body).

https://www.sivanandaonline.org/publ...section_id=850

Mind is Not Atman

by Swami Sivananda

In the West, the psychologists make a serious mistake in saying that consciousness is a function and attribute of the mind. It is Chit or Atman only that is Pure Consciousness Itself. Mind borrows its light from time to time from its source-Atman, the Light of lights or the Sun of suns and glitters temporarily like consciousness, like the golden gilt in brass. Mind borrows its light and power from Brahman, the source (Yoni), just as the iron-rod borrows its heat and effulgence from fire. Mind is Jada or non-intelligent, but appears to be intelligent by borrowing light from Brahman, just as water exposed to the sun borrows heat from the sun.

Technically speaking Atman is Brahman and mind-body is but a manifestation of Atman/Brahman. Suffering is the result of superimposition of mind-body upon Atman. It's incorrect identification of one's true nature. It's thinking one is mind-body and not Atman. If one identifies as mind-body one suffers all the baggage of mind-body. If one identifies as Atman one is liberated from suffering. This is the core of Advaita teaching.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

If the subtle body (mind) is not Atman, neither is the gross body (physical body).

https://www.sivanandaonline.org/publ...section_id=850

Mind is Not Atman

by Swami Sivananda

In the West, the psychologists make a serious mistake in saying that consciousness is a function and attribute of the mind. It is Chit or Atman only that is Pure Consciousness Itself. Mind borrows its light from time to time from its source-Atman, the Light of lights or the Sun of suns and glitters temporarily like consciousness, like the golden gilt in brass. Mind borrows its light and power from Brahman, the source (Yoni), just as the iron-rod borrows its heat and effulgence from fire. Mind is Jada or non-intelligent, but appears to be intelligent by borrowing light from Brahman, just as water exposed to the sun borrows heat from the sun.

Technically speaking Atman is Brahman and mind-body is but a manifestation of Atman/Brahman. Suffering is the result of superimposition of mind-body upon Atman. It's incorrect identification of one's true nature. It's thinking one is mind-body and not Atman. If one identifies as mind-body one suffers all the baggage of mind-body. If one identifies as Atman one is liberated from suffering. This is the core of Advaita teaching.

You are either misunderstanding what I said or you are intentionally twisting, coloring or distorting what I said as you usually do. And you pretty much repeated what I have said/posted.

No where did I say the body is atman. I said the self is atman, which you highlighted. The ego-mind is not the sense of self/I. Atman is the sense of self/I, the ego-mind's job or purpose is to use language and thus thoughts to describe, express, and to get to know (through self realization) the sense of self/I/atman, the physical universe and everything in the physical universe. Atman/I/self is the one whom is aware one is conscious and of being aware of being conscious.

Suffering is caused by separating, dividing or frangmenting oneness/wholeness, by separating, dividing or frangmenting the self away from the ego-mind and vice versa. Uniting the ego-mind with the self/atman creates physical and mental unity with oneness/wholeness.

A person should and can not claim to experience oneness/wholeness without directly experiencing both the self along with the ego-mind at the same time. Being aware one is conscious is the easy part, one being aware of his/her own consciousness/being aware of being conscious is the not so easy part. Consciousness is called consciousness for a reason. Consciousness is not called the experiencer for a reason.

Consciousness or pure consciousness is conscious by calapsing the wave function of the electromagnetic field. This is the purpose of consciousness. Consciousness is only one aspect of brahman/oneness/wholeness and brahman/oneness/wholeness is/goes much deeper than consciousness, thus there is way more to oneness/wholeness than consciousness.

There is also the self and the ego-mind. The self and the ego-mind are also aspects of brahman/oneness/wholeness. When you combine/unite the self, ego-mind and conciousness (awareness is included with the self) together, you get brahman as a whole, not separated and divided pieces of brahman. This is the core/foundation of oneness/wholeness/non-duality.

Saying the ego-mind-body needs to be transcended through consciousness (since consciousness only callapses the wave function) is not knowing and experiencing and is the total and complete opposite of self-realization. No aspect/part of brahman/oneness/wholeness needs to be transcended.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

People get confused because the self is beyond ego-mind. The ego-mind is not the sense of self. The ego-mind uses language and other worldly things to describe, experience, express and get to know the self/god or whatever you want to call god.

Just to be clear, the self is an individual, but not separate part or aspect of god or whatever you want to call it.

Edit: The self is the physical manifestation (the self is the heart feeling of I AM) of god. One can not know or directly experience non-duality/oneness or wholeness when one's beliefs does not include the self as being a part or aspect of god. And/or thinks/believes the self is an illusion, not real and/or that the self needs to be transcended.

I'm really not going into the elf/ego/contents discussion, frankly I've had enough of it already. All I'm going to say is that I already understand that.