Meditation, some answers

No rush Zinnat,
We have Eternity.

Regards,
Antoine

let us resume from where we left in the last post. Now here i want to talk about some not so major schools who postulate a slightly different ontology.

We were talking about the tenth door. As i mentioned before, not much can be found about it in conventional Hinduism but there are some subsets/Schools within Hinduism who give very importance to this, and rightly so too. Sikhism talks about it a lot in Gurubani and so is kabir in his work named as Anurad Sagar. Some such other sects are Radhaswami Santsang Beas, Sachha souda, Sahib bandagi and many other similar Deras. These deras are a sort of belief systems/groups which are mostly situated in the northern states of India Hariyana, punjab and J & K and Himachal. These deras do not care what religion one belongs or what is one's cast or creed but one has to take Naam which is a kind of baptism in order to to accepted in the Dera. Only the head of the Dera can give naam not anyone else. In these Sikhism is a formal religion and the most famous one in rest of these is Radhaswami satsang vyas which has branches not all over india but in many other counries too. I have personally visited most of the deras, read their litrature and came very close to becoming a follower of one but withdrew at the last moment. All these dreas share similar ideology more or less except that they all put very much importance on the Guru( head or founder of the deras). They say that only Right and competent Guru can lead to a successful spiritual journey. it is not possible for aspirants to carry on spiritually on their own. In a sense, it is much like we can found in Sufism where the Shaikh ( head of the Sect) is everything. Much of their literature is online available if anyone is interested.

Their ideology is called Santmat, which means the way of the saints. They accept the existence of the traditional gods of all religions but say that even these gods are not beyond Samsara so worshipping them will not able followers to move beyond the cycle of life and death. They say that all these gods are controlled by an entity which they call Niranjan. This Niranjan controls everyone as it is present in everyone in the form of mind. He is the father of Brahma, Visnu and Shiva while Maya(nature or Adi Shakti) is their mother. This pair controls everyone up to 13th plane. They also call Niranjan as Kal(death or time). An aspirant can move outside their control only with the help of competent guru and the Naam provided by him.

This will continue in the nest post too.

with love,
sanjay

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 462 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by zinnat

They accept the existence of the traditional gods of all religions but say that even these gods are not beyond Samsara so worshipping them will not able followers to move beyond the cycle of life and death. They say that all these gods are controlled by an entity which they call Niranjan.

That's a very interesting point about "these gods are not beyond Samsara so worshiping them will not able followers to move beyond the cycle of life and death". I had not thought about that much but it does resonate well with me.

It's also interesting that you mentioned "Niranjan" as I never knew about Niranjan even though my spiritual mentor was a mahamandeleshwara in the Niranjani order of Shankara. (I'm not sure if the two are related. I was wondering if you knew of any connection between the two.)

[Miss Hepburn]

zinnat, have you practiced the traditions of Sant Mat and Radhasoami?
I'm thinking ...no.
Makes no difference to me -just wondering.

(Diff spellings are fine, these are what I'm familiar with...also, Sat Nam or Sat Naam and Shabd, of course.
Everyone is different, doesn't matter. Tomato, tomahto.)

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

QUOTE 462 EXCERPT:That's a very interesting point about "these gods are not beyond Samsara so worshiping them will not able followers to move beyond the cycle of life and death". I had not thought about that much but it does resonate well with me.

zinnat- You are not the only one to feel so as many traditional hindus feel the same way.

It's also interesting that you mentioned "Niranjan" as I never knew about Niranjan even though my spiritual mentor was a mahamandeleshwara in the Niranjani order of Shankara. (I'm not sure if the two are related. I was wondering if you knew of any connection between the two.)

zinnat- You rightly gussed as both are very much related. In common language, these orders are called Akaras. These basically draw their heritage from Adi-Shankra, who was a very prominent hindu Philosopher born before 4-5 centuries before Christ. He followed Advaita Vedanta. He tried to unified all subsects of Hinduism under one roof. He wrote many books on Hinduism and organized public debates with Buddhist and Jain scholars. Not only that he founded many akaras( orders) under the umbrella of Advaita Vedanta thus he accommodated worshippers of all Hindi gods in his order. Though, these orders were found 8-10 centuries later. Niranjani order is certainly one of those. As the name suggests, they must be worshipping Niranjan. i do not know much about them beside that.

Niranjani oredr in not the only one such order. There are many more. These are orders who follow lord Shiva, and there are who follow Vishnu, Brahma, and many other gods too. These orders do not teach only spirituality but marshal arts too. That is why they are called Akaras, which means the practice place for fights. That happened perhaps at that time Muslims were taking control of Indian subcontinent so religious scholars tried to train Hindus to take fight to the invaders.

with love,
sanjay

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

zinnat - have you practiced the traditions of Sant Mat and Radhasoami?
I'm thinking ...no.
Makes no difference to me -just wondering.

(Diff spellings are fine, these are what I'm familiar with...also, Sat Nam or Sat Naam and Shabd, of course.
Everyone is different, doesn't matter. Tomato, tomahto.)

Miss H,
As i found it from my personal experience, basics are no different from any other religious subset except that Naam (baptism) which all followers have to go through. They arrange a public ceremony kind of thing for this Naam giving where many new aspirants take naam from the head of the dera. In this process, the guru tells then five words in their ears and all followers have to repeat those words whenever they get time. This is their type of mantra on which the followers will have to meditate. They claim that Knowing these five words from any other source would not work. One has to take from these head of the dera because besides telling those words, the guru also activates some kind of spiritual trigger in the followers to enable them to elevate spiritually and only the guru can do that.

besides this, all these dera ask their followers to abide by strict moral code like one should not steal, cheat, lie, take non-veg or any kind of alcohol/drugs, maintain chastity and help others in public life. Nothing new here as all religions/schools ask their followers to do the same. Besides that, they ask their followers to donate and volunteer in the routine working of the deras.

These dera are very well organized. if you ever happen to see the main dera of Radha Swami sutsang Vyas, you will be surprised to see how smoothly they handle their day to day operations and major events on that grand scale. You will be surprised to know that these dera do not hire even a single person on salary. All work is done by follower volunteers, which keep changing after some days. This applies to their annul gatherings also where millions participate. These deras are very rich both in cash and property. You cannot imagine their wealth. This radha Swami suntang dera in situated in the city of Beas in the state of punjab that they own almost the whole city besides the thousands of acers of farmland nearby. The same is true for suchha sauda dera, which own the half of the city of Sirsa in haryana state. These deras have their own schools, hospitals, malls, farms, gas filling stations etc. You name it and they have it. Because of that much wealth associated, internal power struggle becomes inevitable whenever the change of the guard happens.

I have been at most all the major deras personally and also found that the head of Shahib bandigi dera in J & K is a very knowledgeable person spiritually. It may look a overstatement from my side but its head Sadguru Madhu Paramhans is the only such living person i ever found who knows more than me spiritually during my quest of three decades. I was totally ready to be his disciple by taking Naam from him, I went to meet to him for that through one of my friend who happened to be his follower already. During my meeting, i asked him about a difficulty which i were facing during meditation after crossing tenth door but he refused to answer me and asked to become his disciple first, only then he will answer my query. Hearing this i realized that he is still more interested in increasing the number of this followers instead of helping those who need his expertise thus i withdrew myself. I am still not sure whether it was right decision or not but it happened.

So, they basically ask their followers to live by the moral code they provide and meditate on the five names they provide during Naam ceremony, whenever one gets the time. Besides this, one has to volunteer and donate in the deras as per his/her capacity. That is all. They do not talk much about spiritual stages. Instead of that they say that afer taking naam, the guru will take care of all that. Just keep meditating.

with love,
sanjay

[Unseeking Seeker]

@ zinnat ... I’ve not visited any of these deras myself but I do know someone who is an ardent, devout follower of the Beas setup you speak of. She was given the mantra as you said and asked to meditate at the third eye zone.

However, on interaction with her, I found that the teaching is skewed. She seemed ignorant of nuances of the energy path. Maybe some shaktipat is transferred by the Dera heads. I don’t know. I’m against shaktipat, unless the neophyte is first ready, having shifted his/her core in thought, word & deed on a moment to moment basis.

Enablements happen only when we are ready, that’s what I’ve seen. ‘Ready’ is when we rest lower mind and purify our heart.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 466 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by zinnat

[color=DarkRed]zinnat- You rightly gussed as both are very much related. In common language, these orders are called Akaras. These basically draw their heritage from Adi-Shankra, who was a very prominent hindu Philosopher born before 4-5 centuries before Christ.

Thank you for your illuminating response to my question. Once I read your post, I immediately thought that there might be a connection between the Naranjani Order of Shankara (my spiritual mentor's order) and your description of Naranjan.

That was very helpful. Thanks again.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by zinnat

As i found it from my personal experience, basics are no different from any other religious subset except that Naam (baptism) which all followers have to go through. They arrange a public ceremony kind of thing for this Naam giving where many new aspirants take naam from the head of the dera. In this process, the guru tells then five words in their ears and all followers have to repeat those words whenever they get time. This is their type of mantra on which the followers will have to meditate. They claim that Knowing these five words from any other source would not work.

The problem with groups such as Sant Mat and Radha Soami Satsang Beas is that the initiation into the Nam has been reduced to a mantra whispered into the seeker's ear, rather than the direct revelation of the Nam. They are told to meditate on the mantra and if they persist they may hear the Inner Sound and see the Inner Light. Guru Angad Dev says that Nam is neither spoken by the tongue nor seen with the eyes nor heard by the ears.

As Guru Amar Das says:
Close the nine doors
And stop the mind from wandering.
Enter thou the tenth
That leads thee to the Eternal Home.
There the sweet melody resounds day and night.
Attain thou this with the guidance of a Guru.

But the Guru has to have the ability to directly reveal the Nam.

Peace

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by iamthat

...Nam is neither spoken by the tongue nor seen with the eyes nor heard by the ears.

Um. Exactly.