The 23rd Psalm - An Absolute Spiritual Masterpiece

[davidmartin]

Originally Posted by SimpleMan

Psalm 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

If we talk about this psalm, should we not show it entirely? I remember myself doing the same thing... taking bits and pieces from the Bible and showing them in the light of my understanding.I am not yet prepared to talk about the Bible in a more detailed way, I am in a continuous process of studying it and I am very slow, but the meaning of this psalm is very clear...

You say that the truth I talk about is "my truth" created by my mind and yet you come and do the same thing, there's only one big difference, I believe in good and evil as being immutable, it does not matter what I think, what is good stays good and what is evil stays evil, and you believe in a relative good and in a relative evil, both being a product of our minds.Why should I trust my mind about such things when my mind is always "for me"? Should I not trust Jesus who is the only one who came from God and spoke to the whole world the Words of God? Jesus Himself spoke about Satan and death and hell and the lake of fire.I don't say that I am saint, I am not, far from it, I am working my salvation, though I know that God's grace is upon me, I know the truth.

Now, I can't understand how my "talks" about the evil one may affect a non believer... after all, you don't believe in Satan.

i do trust Jesus that things like divine justice will be perfect, it seems to me some of the doctrines and attitudes may not really reflect Jesus that are common in Christianity. like, God not accepting a person's good deeds as of any value etc, and doctrines like depravity of the soul, all based on theories and pushed by the church over time... Jesus seems more against all this
and hell, well only the gospel of matthew really mentions it - different branches of the early church has different ideas. The 'Judaising' branch were big on hell. Paul not so much. Gospel of John not at all. How do we know the enemy didn't try to undermine Jesus by ideas such as threatening people with hell, which might be a doctrine of the enemy because it puts people off from finding the truth. I think absolute truth is real but great care needed. Jesus clearly stood against certain ideas the pharisees had. These ideas are easily found in the churches today. But many are convinced by the Holy Spirit. Yes, Holy Spirit is very accomodating and found in churches from protestant to catholic and beyond... but that doesn't show beliefs are correct, only the grace of God is very wide and accepting, as we should be too :) i guess i see a 'law' in Christian ideas of the gospel and think this gets in the way of what Jesus wants... i see many bad outcomes from law-heavy churches they go astray a lot and its because they served more than one master. what i love about Jesus is he challanges what is accepted and i think its valid to challenge the accepted when history shows evil has resulted from it. eg inquisitions and its not just Catholics the protestant reformation persecuted the anabaptists.. so the heart and truth in God is there but the harsh law you hear about Jesus i think that's false

[SimpleMan]

Originally Posted by davidmartin

i do trust Jesus that things like divine justice will be perfect, it seems to me some of the doctrines and attitudes may not really reflect Jesus that are common in Christianity. like, God not accepting a person's good deeds as of any value etc, and doctrines like depravity of the soul, all based on theories and pushed by the church over time... Jesus seems more against all this
and hell, well only the gospel of matthew really mentions it - different branches of the early church has different ideas. The 'Judaising' branch were big on hell. Paul not so much. Gospel of John not at all. How do we know the enemy didn't try to undermine Jesus by ideas such as threatening people with hell, which might be a doctrine of the enemy because it puts people off from finding the truth. I think absolute truth is real but great care needed. Jesus clearly stood against certain ideas the pharisees had. These ideas are easily found in the churches today. But many are convinced by the Holy Spirit. Yes, Holy Spirit is very accomodating and found in churches from protestant to catholic and beyond... but that doesn't show beliefs are correct, only the grace of God is very wide and accepting, as we should be too :) i guess i see a 'law' in Christian ideas of the gospel and think this gets in the way of what Jesus wants... i see many bad outcomes from law-heavy churches they go astray a lot and its because they served more than one master. what i love about Jesus is he challanges what is accepted and i think its valid to challenge the accepted when history shows evil has resulted from it. eg inquisitions and its not just Catholics the protestant reformation persecuted the anabaptists.. so the heart and truth in God is there but the harsh law you hear about Jesus i think that's false

Real good works that come from deep inside your soul are a result of the Holy Spirit coming into you, but good works without faith in God are in vain.On this planet there is not even a single human being "good", we all have sinned and sin everyday.

If there is no hell then there's no judgement, no punishment and no justice.Hell is the place of eternal separation from God, there you will be tormented forever, it is your choice to go there, not God's choice.It's like the ultimate realm where you get when your final choice is to be against God, yet God is rich in mercy, remember the thief on the cross, God is welcoming you in His Kingdom till the very last moment of your life.

[sky]

Originally Posted by SimpleMan

Real good works that come from deep inside your soul are a result of the Holy Spirit coming into you, but good works without faith in God are in vain.On this planet there is not even a single human being "good", we all have sinned and sin everyday.

If there is no hell then there's no judgement, no punishment and no justice.Hell is the place of eternal separation from God, there you will be tormented forever, it is your choice to go there, not God's choice.It's like the ultimate realm where you get when your final choice is to be against God, yet God is rich in mercy, remember the thief on the cross, God is welcoming you in His Kingdom till the very last moment of your life.

'but good works without faith in God are in vain.'
Why? What about the goods deeds that Atheists do, are they in vain,


Where is this place you call ' Hell ' ? will Atheists go there, or is it just Christians.?

[SimpleMan]

The Word of God... If good works could have been the requirement to go to Heaven, then Jesus would have not been needed to come in this world.When I say "in vain" basically it means that no matter how many good works you do, you can't get to Heaven this way.It's like working to get a place there, God says that He gives this chance, to be with Him, as a gift to everyone who comes to Him.Of course, good works are a way to get closer to God because you act like He would act.

I don't know where this place, hell, is located, maybe in another realm, there are many testimonies about this place.

Perhaps heaven is not as much of a place as a state of mind, or even a state of being. A state of perfect union with God. A state of perfect love that cannot be achieved when one is filled with hate and anger and wishing evil upon one's perceived enemies. You can love your friends but if you hate your enemies you are still harboring hate, and to the extent you do so, is the extent that you cannot know God. As Jesus demonstrated, even if they torture and murder you, if you wish to know God, you must not fill yourself with hate for them. No one need go to hell for justice to be served. They already suffer enough by distancing themselves from knowing love, and knowing God, through their own hate. We must have compassion for them, as they themselves are tortured by their own hate and fear and make their own hell within. Telling them about a God who intends to condemn them to eternal torture, is no way to lead them away from the fear and loneliness that drives their hate.

But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
Jesus Christ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

[SimpleMan]

Originally Posted by Christianity

Perhaps heaven is not as much of a place as a state of mind, or even a state of being. A state of perfect union with God. A state of perfect love that cannot be achieved when one is filled with hate and anger and wishing evil upon one's perceived enemies. You can love your friends but if you hate your enemies you are still harboring hate, and to the extent you do so, is the extent that you cannot know God. As Jesus demonstrated, even if they torture and murder you, if you wish to know God, you must not fill yourself with hate for them. No one need go to hell for justice to be served. They already suffer enough by distancing themselves from knowing love, and knowing God, through their own hate. We must have compassion for them, as they themselves are tortured by their own hate and fear and make their own hell within. Telling them about a God who intends to condemn them to eternal torture, is no way to lead them away from the fear and loneliness that drives their hate.

I agree, "Heaven" is also a state of mind but this takes place when the Holy Spirit comes into you, in other words, when Gods comes into you and lives inside you.I agree, there are people who do evil and suffer because of it, we should pray for them, but also there are people who do evil and don't even care, they do it intentionally to mislead people from the truth.

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

There tons of testimonies with people going in hell and being saved by Jesus, I don't think they lie when their whole mindset is changed after such a horrible event.

[sky]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Perhaps heaven is not as much of a place as a state of mind, or even a state of being. A state of perfect union with God. A state of perfect love that cannot be achieved when one is filled with hate and anger and wishing evil upon one's perceived enemies. You can love your friends but if you hate your enemies you are still harboring hate, and to the extent you do so, is the extent that you cannot know God. As Jesus demonstrated, even if they torture and murder you, if you wish to know God, you must not fill yourself with hate for them. No one need go to hell for justice to be served. They already suffer enough by distancing themselves from knowing love, and knowing God, through their own hate. We must have compassion for them, as they themselves are tortured by their own hate and fear and make their own hell within. Telling them about a God who intends to condemn them to eternal torture, is no way to lead them away from the fear and loneliness that drives their hate.

Of course they are states of mind. You make your own Heaven/Hell according to your life style and how you perceive the world around you.

[sky]

Originally Posted by SimpleMan

The Word of God... If good works could have been the requirement to go to Heaven, then Jesus would have not been needed to come in this world.When I say "in vain" basically it means that no matter how many good works you do, you can't get to Heaven this way.It's like working to get a place there, God says that He gives this chance, to be with Him, as a gift to everyone who comes to Him.Of course, good works are a way to get closer to God because you act like He would act.

I don't know where this place, hell, is located, maybe in another realm, there are many testimonies about this place.

Every deed, thought and word that is practised in love never goes in vain regardless of what God you believe or don't believe in.

LOVE has NO religion....

[Sapphirez]

I think that it means that God actually accepts those that consider themselves against him, and that we should not be afraid of honoring him in their presence and hopefully helping them see that he is their loving God too. I am not a Christian ("anymore") I just saw this post as 'last posted in' on the main page and felt like checking it out because while I was never heavily religious, I did grow up loosely Lutheran or whatever chill Christianity and was taught the message of sweet Jesus of course. anyways it wasn't until recent years that I decided that all the crazy evil threats and stuff by God in the bible were mostly just misinterpretations of God trying to help people honor the Earth and our divine connection here and beyond so that life is better for us. ie things like him telling people he'll smote them if they disobey him doesn't mean he's actually going to murder them or something, but does share the simple truth that if you disobey the natural laws of this planet Earth and the nature here and within yourself, you will suffer and perhaps die because of it. anyway sorry that's a lot of off topic rambling. I do think that psalm 23 passage sounds nice and is basically about God welcoming all at his table and hoping we do the same so the fact we're all family can become more apparent

[SimpleMan]

Originally Posted by sky123

Every deed, thought and word that is practised in love never goes in vain regardless of what God you believe or don't believe in.

LOVE has NO religion....

It's funny, everybody talks about love all day long but the whole world is still going down.