Zen Anybody

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

"Fake" or untrue is a touchy subject when it comes to spirituality and religion. Like I could list 20 things here I believe to be fake in that topic and I'd make a lot of people very mad and upset. People are very attached to their beliefs, true or untrue. Some beliefs we hold very dear and for anyone to question them evokes a strong and sometimes violent response.

One thing I'm aware of is in books where two different characters are speaking one can see evidence if it is just one person making up all the characters or not. Like in the book "Journey Of Souls" one can see the author and the people he is interviewing are in fact different persons. The author's view is clearly different from those he quotes. In fact, there are places one can see the author is interpreting some of those he quotes according to his own bias.

That's what I would say about Castaneda's books as well. Carlos and Don Juan's voices seem to be unique. It's possible for one person to pretend to be different characters with totally different speaking patterns and beliefs but it is not easy.

Does it matter if something is true or not? In one way no as we can believe anything we want. No one should tell another what to believe or what is true, unless their beliefs somehow harm others or convince one to harm others. So then one could point that out. It matter's to us what we believe is true as it determines what we do and how we act.

For me, this is what spirituality is, a search for truth. But then in Buddhism or Castaneda's books or whatever, one can read things and think, well I don't know if such and such is true or not, so then we seek to find out through our own experience as that is all we have to make such determinations and well, our own logic and contemplation. New evidence comes in all the time then we reflect and refine what we understand or believe.

I think truths exist. But then we all see "truths" through our own conditioning, experience, and bias. Like the example of the different people stating what an elephant is according to their own unique sensory experience of it. If one person gets bitten by a dog and another gets loved by the same dog, what is the truth about that's dog's nature? Is it loving or violent? Depends on the person what the dog is. We all have unique truths based on our own unique experience. To the person attacked by the dog, it is true the dog is violent. To the person loved by the dog, it is true the dog is loving. Both are true, just because something is subjective, does not mean it is not also objectively true. Truth has layers. Deeper and deeper ways to understand it. To one, the dog is violent, to another it is loving, both are true facts for them, but then a deeper truth is the dog is both. The dog changes what it is manifesting moment to moment according to circumstances and it's own conditioning.

Gurdjieff is another one who fits into the good writer category who didn't quite do everything about which he wrote.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sentient

Yes, and an ‘aloneness as one’s consort' feel too ….

At this point, having completely renounced his own comfort and privacy, paradoxically, the warrior finds himself more alone.
He is like an island sitting alone in the middle of a lake. Occasional ferry boats and commuters go back and forth between the shore and the island, but all that activity only expresses the further loneliness, or the aloneness, of the island.
Although the warrior’s life is dedicated to helping others, he realizes that he will never be able to completely share his experience with others.
The fullness of his experience is his own, and he must live with his own truth.
Yet he is more and more in love with the world. That combination of love affair and loneliness is what enables the warrior to constantly reach out to help others.
By renouncing his private world, the warrior discovers a greater universe and a fuller and fuller broken heart. This is not something to feel bad about: it is a cause for rejoicing. It is entering the warrior’s world.
(Trungpa)


*

The "aloneness" is something that most people don't mention and might not even realize.

Ryokan

Yes, I'm truly a dunce
Living among trees and plants.
Please don't question me about illusion and enlightenment --
This old fellow just likes to smile to himself.
I wade across streams with bony legs,
And carry a bag about in fine spring weather.
That's my life,
And the world owes me nothing.

I could not agree more.

Ikkyu
A Fisherman

Studying texts and stiff meditation can make you lose your Original Mind.
A solitary tune by a fisherman, though, can be an invaluable treasure.
Dusk rain on the river, the moon peeking in and out of the clouds;
Elegant beyond words, he chants his songs night after night.

Song can connect to many spiritual essences.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Gurdjieff is another one who fits into the good writer category who didn't quite do everything about which he wrote.

I don't do anything I write, I did it, past tense. What am I "doing?" as in now? Writing....about what I did...or was doing...

I think it's impossible to be detached from one's mind, detached from ones conditioning, then to bring in words in any form...as soon as one writes, or is writing, or is reading.... or is talking to themselves... poof.... ..... the being or experience of "mindfulness" or emptiness is gone

Maybe it's like listening, not with an agenda, or a purpose, or an opinion, just listening..... it can't be done unless one is inwardly empty, in total peace. Full of awareness, understanding (non-verbal) but not clinging internally to any word or words. My focus is outward, on the one speaking and not on any of my internal dialog. As soon as my attention is on my response, I cease to be listening.

So no one who is speaking or writing about these spiritual things is actually aware of them or doing them at that time. They are in the conceptual. Buddha was asked are you a God or a man?..... he answered I am awake.... Not a clever answer.... he had no other answer.... here now..... nothing conceptual... this state of being, wordless, awake.....yea that's a word...... so he did pick one there lol. so somebody maybe asked him well what does awake mean?...then he probably pointed to a tree nearby or whatever...... sweeping gesture with the hand across the horizon.... this now as it is.... like those zen masters when asked what enlightenment was..... this bowl of soup.....

this now as it is when I am not "mentally" involved in it, however I am fully experientially involved in it....(present)

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I don't do anything I write, I did it, past tense. What am I "doing?" as in now? Writing....about what I did...or was doing...

I think it's impossible to be detached from one's mind, detached from ones conditioning, then to bring in words in any form...as soon as one writes, or is writing, or is reading.... or is talking to themselves... poof.... ..... the being or experience of "mindfulness" or emptiness is gone

Maybe it's like listening, not with an agenda, or a purpose, or an opinion, just listening..... it can't be done unless one is inwardly empty, in total peace. Full of awareness, understanding (non-verbal) but not clinging internally to any word or words. My focus is outward, on the one speaking and not on any of my internal dialog. As soon as my attention is on my response, I cease to be listening.

So no one who is speaking or writing about these spiritual things is actually aware of them or doing them at that time. They are in the conceptual. Buddha was asked are you a God or a man?..... he answered I am awake.... Not a clever answer.... he had no other answer.... here now..... nothing conceptual... this state of being, wordless, awake.....yea that's a word...... so he did pick one there lol. so somebody maybe asked him well what does awake mean?...then he probably pointed to a tree nearby or whatever...... sweeping gesture with the hand across the horizon.... this now as it is.... like those zen masters when asked what enlightenment was..... this bowl of soup.....

this now as it is when I am not "mentally" involved in it, however I am fully experientially involved in it....(present)

I absolutely LOVE this post of yours.


"Maybe it's like listening, not with an agenda, or a purpose, or an opinion, just listening..... it can't be done unless one is inwardly empty, in total peace."

"Buddha was asked are you a God or a man?..... he answered I am awake.... Not a clever answer.... he had no other answer.... here now..... nothing conceptual... this state of being, wordless, awake.....yea that's a word...... so he did pick one there."

I thought that was a great answer by the Buddha and it goes deeper than most would suspect.

I recently attended a continuing education class for licensed mental health professionals ("Please tell me I'm not crazy ...")about spiritual experiences. The opening question was to give one word that best defines spirituality. The first responder answered, "AWAKE". I seconded it.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

[b][u][color="Blue"]
A Fisherman

Studying texts and stiff meditation can make you lose your Original Mind.
A solitary tune by a fisherman, though, can be an invaluable treasure.
Dusk rain on the river, the moon peeking in and out of the clouds;
Elegant beyond words, he chants his songs night after night.

That also reminds me of Herman Hesse's Siddhartha and Siddhartha's connection with the "Ferryman".

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I absolutely LOVE this post of yours.


"Maybe it's like listening, not with an agenda, or a purpose, or an opinion, just listening..... it can't be done unless one is inwardly empty, in total peace."

"Buddha was asked are you a God or a man?..... he answered I am awake.... Not a clever answer.... he had no other answer.... here now..... nothing conceptual... this state of being, wordless, awake.....yea that's a word...... so he did pick one there."

I thought that was a great answer by the Buddha and it goes deeper than most would suspect.

I recently attended a continuing education class for licensed mental health professionals ("Please tell me I'm not crazy ...")about spiritual experiences. The opening question was to give one word that best defines spirituality. The first responder answered, "AWAKE". I seconded it.

' Buddha was asked are you a God or a man?..... he answered I am awake.... Not a clever answer.... he had no other answer. '






Here's the original Sutta where Buddha had a lot more to say...

"Just like a red, blue, or white lotus — born in the water, grown in the water, rising up above the water — stands unsmeared by the water, in the same way I — born in the world, grown in the world, having overcome the world — live unsmeared by the world. Remember me, brahman, as 'awakened.'


"The fermentations by which I would go
to a deva-state,
or become a gandhabba in the sky,
or go to a yakkha-state & human-state:
Those have been destroyed by me,
ruined, their stems removed.
Like a blue lotus, rising up,
unsmeared by water,
unsmeared am I by the world,
and so, brahman,
I'm awake." Etc:


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi....036.than.html

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

That also reminds me of Herman Hesse's Siddhartha and Siddhartha's connection with the "Ferryman".

Thank you for pointing to Siddhartha.
Here is some quotes I enjoyed that have
to do with my one and only real subject to explore
at this time, Love.

“It may be important to great thinkers to examine the world, to explain and despise it.
But I think it is only important to love the world, not to despise it, not for us to hate each other,
but to be able to regard the world and ourselves and all beings with love, admiration and respect.”
― Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

“. . . gentleness is stronger than severity, water is stronger than rock, love is stronger than force.”
― Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

“And here is a doctrine at which you will laugh. It seems to me, Govinda, that love
is the most important thing in the world.”
― Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

[sentient]

Originally Posted by sky123

' Buddha was asked are you a God or a man?..... he answered I am awake.... Not a clever answer.... he had no other answer. '

Here's the original Sutta where Buddha had a lot more to say...

"Just like a red, blue, or white lotus — born in the water, grown in the water, rising up above the water — stands unsmeared by the water, in the same way I — born in the world, grown in the world, having overcome the world — live unsmeared by the world. Remember me, brahman, as 'awakened.'


"The fermentations by which I would go
to a deva-state,
or become a gandhabba in the sky,
or go to a yakkha-state & human-state:
Those have been destroyed by me,
ruined, their stems removed.
Like a blue lotus, rising up,
unsmeared by water,
unsmeared am I by the world,
and so, brahman,
I'm awake." Etc:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi....036.than.html

Lotus and the Swan symbolism

As now a Swan evangelist ...
Advaita Vedanta existed before Buddha or Buddhism.
Advaita Vedanta is said to share numerous terminology and doctrine similarities with Buddhism.

http://www.wellbeingphd.com/en/the-s...-phd-identity/

The Swan is an important motif in the Advaita Vedanta philosophy. The Advaita Vedanta is the oldest extant sub-school of Vedanta, an ancient Hindu tradition of scriptural exegesis and religious practice, and the best-known school of advaita, the non-duality of Atman (soul) and Brahman (supersoul) or the Absolute.

The Swan symbolizes five things:

First, the swan is called hamsah in Sanskrit (which becomes hamso if the first letter in the next word is /h/). Upon repeating this hamso indefinitely, it becomes so-ham, ("I am that") - which in Sanskrit means the oneness of human and the divine.

Second, just as a swan lives in water but its feathers are not soiled by water, similarly a liberated Advaitin lives in this world full of maya (the veil of perception/ignorance), but is untouched by its illusion.

Third, the swan is symbolic of viveka, the capability of knowing the difference between the real and the illusory, like a swan which is said to be able to extract milk from a mixture of milk and water.

Fourth, it is also symbolic of sattva guna (purity, receptivity for knowledge). The swan is depicted as the vahana (vehicle a particular Hindu deity is using) of Sarasvati, the Goddess of Knowledge. One who is perfect in these qualities is called a paramahamsa.

Fifth, the Swan must fly with two wings. Those wings represent wisdom and devotion – jnani and bhakti.

*
Around 16,000-17,000 years ago the brightest star of Cygnus occupied the position of Pole Star (where stillness and movement come together) the still ‘sky nail’ - star - of the World Tree/Axis Mundi for shamanic peoples.

Open site of Mal'ta, Siberia.
Siberian Middle Upper Palaeolithic/Gravettian, 22,000-20,000 years old
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/bf...ans-malta2.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st39G8ukD7I


*

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

Yes, I'm truly a dunce
Living among trees and plants.
Please don't question me about illusion and enlightenment --
This old fellow just likes to smile to himself.
I wade across streams with bony legs,
And carry a bag about in fine spring weather.
That's my life,
And the world owes me nothing.

What a great poem from the Zen hermit himself.
Thanks for sharing.

*************************************