A vegetarian, not a vegan. Open to arguments to go vegan.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Altair

Lets not go there.

Well, That's like I said, we just do the good things, such as education and contraception will lead to less births per female over their lifespan, which is better than a more direct Malthusian policy such as a one child law or whatever.

Then we have more tacit issues where the underlying ideology is Malthusian - if death causing policy could be justified under energy rules and low-impact agricultural regulations etc, which isn't unlikely considering current trends. Since the die off is therefore indirect we can't really pin it on Malthusian cruelty, and people won't because they tend not to notice underlying ideological causes.

Thus, the Malthusian drive will not be detected, but I don't think for a minute that education, reproductive policy and other positive things will be the limit of the endeavour. They'll be crass and heavy handed anxiously screaming about a crisis and so forth - and veganism will probably be part of it since it's so conducive to virtue signaling.

Anyway, not entirely off topic, but it's a bit fringe, and all to say the narrative of vegans saving the world is a virtue based grand delusion, though not in itself a madness that I hate, and it's not for me to advise people nor even suggest there is one way of eating works. I just say what's true according to what we know so far in science, and understand there are many different ways for a human to eat and thrive. It depends on everything the individual is, and the social, economic, cultural conditions and so on. Food is part of everything.

[Altair]

More vegans would help from an environmental point of view. That's not controversial. Health wise it depends on the individual, so I do not consider it realistic. What is certainly doable is drastic reduction/elimination of mammal consumption (cows, pigs, sheep, etc.). I believe that's a workable solution that avoids imposed veganism as well as doing absolutely nothing.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by ArchangelIdiotis

My reasons for remaining vegetarian are mainly the importance of avoiding protein deficiency.

.

When we know more, we do more according to our ever changing state of awareness and knowledge. How you feel contributes to that changing state too. Nothing in this world is static. Everything is, including ourselves and ever evolving state, a continuum of life and cycles much like nature models. We are a part of nature, so how we live within this continuum/cyclical flow of life is really just where we are open to do so.

As Gem has noted, there is so much to consider in the bigger picture of life. You can’t say what’s right or wrong for another, you can only choose for you, with an openness to listen to your body ongoing.

There is only the consideration of what is, what you have to work with and are aware of, both inwardly and outside of you. The choices for some are abound, for others they are governed by limitations.

Animals instinctively eat what they know is right for their bodies. Humans have lost that ability. We have far too many choices. Our food is mass produced and full of ****.

People rarely get concerned about how their foods are produced, worrying more about being vegetarian or vegan, but completely oblivious to the quality of that food for their health and well-being.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by JustBe

You can’t say what’s right or wrong for another, you can only choose for you, with an openness to listen to your body ongoing.

I don't believe it's as simple as that. Yes, different individuals thrive on different diets but to say there is no right or wrong whatsoever is a risky step. Is it okay to hunt for humans now and eat them? No? Why is it okay to eat other mammals? Why is it okay to eat animals?

See, it's not that ''clear cut''. I think a radical vegan perspective (''veganism is the only way'') is not helpful, but I don't think ''there is no right and wrong'' is helpful either. There is a grey area, and that area is an ongoing conversation.

What is true is that we have radically changed our environment worldwide to raise livestock, which are in the tens of billions. Somehow we manage to feeds tens of billions of livestock but can't feed billions of people. We use up so much land to feed all these animals, cows in particular, and destroy so many rainforests with it, that we have to seriously ask ourselves whether too much relativism is helpful. And again, I do not believe in radical veganism. I am also not a vegan and I don't want to be one either, but 'we' (as in society) also needs to move away from radical relativism just as much, and also move away from the belief that ''all animals are the same'' when in fact they require variation in space, food and water. Why do eggs and beef have to be thought of as the same thing, the same impact? Radical vegans and relativists find one another there, it's ''all (veganism) or nothing/the same (relativism)''.

Anyway, the thread starter eats eggs, which can have almost no environmental footprint. That's a good start, as you consider the environment as well as your own bodily needs.

[JustBe]

Your being a little ridiculous and far fetched with your argument about eating humans.

You’ve always been defensive up until recent times about certain beliefs you hold and why you hold them. You’ve mellowed over time and anyone like you can do the same regarding choices in eating. People are ignorant or just don’t care but that too can change. As you’ve changed.

As I stated, there is no right or wrong in relation to others choices. Yours included. What I choose and what I’m aware of Governs my choices.

Someone ignorant of all that your aware of, wont necessarily, think like you.

[AngelBlue]

...... Ever heard of cannibals ????...
Just saying !!!!

[Altair]

Originally Posted by AngelBlue

...... Ever heard of cannibals ????...
Just saying !!!!

True. Also, humans are mammals.
Some people say there's no difference between eating a cow and squatting a mosquito. The extreme relativist and the radical vegan both agree yet come from a very different point of view.

I have never been a vegan so it's a bit funny to read some things. I have always favoured a grey area, and yes, even within that area there can be strong arguments and opinions, but it's not my problem if people cannot recognize a position I take or when I play devil's advocate. I have always stated that humans are omnivores, but also that we should be looking for ways to reduce our impact (on the environment as well as animals). Taking both arguments together, it also becomes a matter of understanding which animal foods cause what impact.

[AngelBlue]

Hi Altair ....
I've never been a vegan either .
It was just the comments about you being silly saying about eating humans .....
Because whether you like it or not humans eat other humans ..

We were born omnivore . There's no getting away from that ...
BUT I completely respect each individual's eating habits .
It is an argument that will never be resolved. How do we know eating a carrot isn't cruel...???
It lives !!!!
Everything that we eat is alive so where does the debate end ?

[Altair]

Originally Posted by AngelBlue

Everything that we eat is alive so where does the debate end ?

I doubt it will ever end. We're a 'moral species' and we're aware of that. We know we hurt animals and the environment, yet we also know most humans throughout history weren't vegan and we extract nutrients from animal food. Knowing this, it is all still far from a 'finished' debate. To talk about it helps us understand what is right and wrong, as it is with any other ethical issue.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by AngelBlue

It is an argument that will never be resolved. How do we know eating a carrot isn't cruel...???

It's not cruel because the carrot has no central nervous system.