Yale Scientist abanding Darwin's Evolution

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

I live in a basin surrounded in each direction by at least 1 mountain range.
There are some rock formations that date back 1.7-1.9 billion years old - that is the approximate
age of the Grand Canyon at her deepest point - over 6000 feet/1850 meters.
I have found absolutely no evidence of a flood.
I have asked others; there just is no evidence.

Thank you very much for your very convincing response. Your response is in accordance with my intuition, but you have provided me with more concrete information than just my intuition.

Thank you very much !

[Jyotir]

Originally Posted by iamthat

Does it really matter what scientists think? Why do we look to them as some kind of authority?

At the end of the day they are just people with lots of opinions but no real understanding of the deeper questions of life and death and what it means to be a human being.

Peace.

Yes, this is the proper attitude for spiritual aspirants.

Trying to explain reality by science and especially explaining the means and processes of spirituality by physical science is the most silly and fundamentally feckless pursuit imaginable.

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Yet we often see such comments by Jr. Scientist wannabees in threads on spiritual discussion forums, touting physicists and various material scientists as ultimate experts, while predictably there is the implied disparagement of genuine spirituality, even spiritual figures of great attainment, and skepticism of legitimate spiritual practice based on these confused but postured-as-authoritative 'science' arguments, perhaps thinly disguised disarmingly as 'folksy wisdom' - mostly because these people are ultimately suspicious and fearful of elements in spiritual practice, 'unknowns' that are not, and by nature cannot be rational - like faith, devotion, surrender, or require relinquishing the familiar and comfortable control of ego/mind. They rationalize their complacency and fear by these rational scientific models which by nature and definition demand knowing before doing - proof - rather than the intuitive employment, surrender to the practice of faith and invocation as a means of sacrifice and transcending the known..
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The reason being is that science/scientists are necessarily involved in a limited and limiting framework of perception and understanding. It is investigating an illusive appearance by a limited means. But that’s also why science is so successful in what it does do, even if it fails miserably beyond the realms of consciousness that are supra-rational. Eventually it will have to admit this and reconcile this failing or inability with that thing called life, and consciousness as its means.

Science deliberately and necessarily employs a reasoned approach that primarily investigates the predictable superficial attributes of material reality. And importantly, it also employs the incorrect premise that consciousness is dependent on and emerges from the material, when really the inverse is true: that consciousness is the very origin of matter, and further - that matter is merely a limited status of the all-consciousness. This is difficult for predominantly intellectual/sensual human beings to grasp, who see consciousness as almost exclusively mental and intellectual and deriving from matter. Scientists are especially polarized in this orientation, and our conventional culture (especially educational institutions), are now mostly predisposed in this way.

Because science in the post-Enlightenment/Age of Reason world has been so successful in what it does, it has become the dominant model for individuals who also employ the same set of ideals and assumptions about reality, which is understandable, even if it is ultimately false or at best, hopelessly incomplete. People leaving conventional organized religions, becoming atheists, etc., as a concurrence have accelerated this trend.

Most of life is not rational, but an understanding of matter can be. The failure occurs in the assumption that the same rational premises upon which science operates, can also be - and must be - applied and imposed on other aspects of life, which represent and are a vast range of consciousness beyond but including the mental or physical. And so there must be a similarly backwards reasoned self-deceptive and dogmatic compartmentalization which is now has become a virtual religion in its own right - call it “scientism”, which must cleverly pretend and always reach the conclusion as a pre-judgment or prejudice (although this is unconscious in those applying it), that the supra-rational necessarily has no truth-value because it is necessarily unapproachable by reason, and therefore must be “superstition” ie., primitive, false, ineffective, etc., - even immoral - and by subsequently ascribing a negative connotation to “supernatural” for phenomena that is simply extraordinarily natural, but out of the rigid intellectual bounds of a rational materially based reasoned understanding for which the operative principles are yet to be understood.

Even scientists in their required posture are loathe to admit that this gap of understanding represents the entire history of their own field of knowledge and experience; that the empirical observation of phenomena for which no credible understanding prevails is that history. But to reject and compartmentalize that which isn’t comprehended as necessarily superstition? That’s just unenlightened! And why there is the artificial schism due to an assumed superior exclusivity of science-based approaches to reality.

Yet, this artificial circumscription doesn’t make the phenomena unreal, it simply renders it beyond the purview of conventional science. But because of the dominance of science due to its demonstrable success of technical/material approach, we have ironically entered into an age of dogmatic “skepticism” - almost like a religion itself, replete with various forms of intellectual persecution; a de facto inquisition based on the arrogation of science as the ultimate approach to reality. It represents an oppression, ridicule, and disparagement of spiritual approaches to life simply because they are out of the boundaries of rational inquiry. But that’s why scientists think their approach is superior or must be the exclusive organizing principle of others’ approach to life; it is not only ridiculous - it is actually counter-progressive.

Therefore it is entirely appropriate for spiritual aspirants to be skeptical about the assumed authority of scientific opinion regarding issues which are beyond their purview. This is similar to the sad cultural trend of assuming that business leaders or entertainment celebrities or hip-hop stars must possess a deep acquired wisdom about life because they have attained some measure of economic success or social notoriety. Why?


~ J

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Wonder if at times if the search for reason(s) diminish the sense of wonder in ways. Over rationalizing.

I mean when explaining a sunset and what causes it, kills just enjoying the beauty of it. Would find myself if someone did this while enjoying it saying;"shhh, just take it in." Or words along that line.

To never lose the wonder and magic. Yeah, can become a little stale. This is when I feel a nudge to be more creative to experience it or something comes along that blows my mind. Find in these moments, the magic and wonder is still there.

Then as said, some things can not be placed in words or be boxed into an equation. It just is there and experienced. As I see it.

Ahhh, you clearly don't see (experience) the wonder and magic taking place right here, right now in and by way of all of the colorful ideas and thoughts being shared and danced with here NOW, as the sunset and winter of our present civilation approaches. My guess is that internet itself will go completely 'dark' in the next five to fifteen, or thirty at most, years. Shhh, seeing the immensity of such prospect now!

That's just a 'nudge' as you put it to get you, if that's at all possible, to stop 'looking down your nose' at what I see and experience as being quite a amazing (because the the 'dance' of 'mind' is much more than that of the dance of physical molecules which constitute our 'atmosphere' as they reflect physical rays of our 'sun') happening. Talk about boxing yourself 'out' of a display of Life that's going on right in front of you, snobglow.

[Jyotir]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

I live in a basin surrounded in each direction by at least 1 mountain range.
There are some rock formations that date back 1.7-1.9 billion years old - that is the approximate
age of the Grand Canyon at her deepest point - over 6000 feet/1850 meters.
I have found absolutely no evidence of a flood.
I have asked others; there just is no evidence.

Is this missing the forest for the trees?
The canyon itself could be the carved-out manifestation of a flood or floods?
Conventional wisdom says that this happened gradually over millions of years. But what if it was more sudden? There is evidence that tremendous floods occurred when ice-age glaciers covering huge expanses almost consuming the whole hemisphere melted during protracted recession and enormous amounts of water were melted by volcanic activity, ice-dammed, and periodically released in gigantic raging abrasive-infused floods.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Therefore it is entirely appropriate for spiritual aspirants to be skeptical about the assumed authority of scientific opinion regarding issues which are beyond their purview. This is similar to the sad cultural trend of assuming that business leaders or entertainment celebrities or hip-hop stars must possess a deep acquired wisdom about life because they have attained some measure of economic success or social notoriety. Why?

Point(s) well taken, Jyotir. But LOGIC has its place in the pursuit of KNOWLEDGE of TRUTH and the same (as what you said) may be said about spiritual opinion, especially when the (supposed) authority supporting it is someone's intuition which is (irrationally?) thought to be 'infallible'.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, aye what, Bro? An 'aside' from my treatise in relation to what comes across to me as 'spiritual' 'gossip' (not saying you 'gossip' so, now!) in relation to certain 'spiritual' matters:

[Note: Unlike instrumentally measurable and mathematically describable, hence ‘reliably replicable’, phenomena stemming from what are regarded as being physical ‘laws’, there is much confusion and unresolvable speculation pertaining to psychospiritual (hence metaphysical) phenomena which are subjectively actualized happenings that can’t simply be replicated at will – ‘higher order’ mental focus and spiritual motivation are not amenable to ‘exact’ description or ‘precise’ experimental control. I must therefore leave it to readers to consider and sort out what strikes them as being relevant data and reasonable explanations pertaining to (what is called) ‘reincarnation’ [etc.! added here] with the caveat that a great deal of what has been bandied about in connection with the subject strikes me as just being ‘loose’ gossip and speculation which, to the degree it is seriously entertained, may wastefully divert attention and energy away from the goal of actualizing the best possible Love and Joy experience and expression in the ‘framework’ of one’s present physiosocial context. I only reference the above [not in this excerpt] sources of information to introduce readers who may not be familiar with the subject to reports and analyses thereof which fairly convincingly support the proposition that souls (i.e. psychospiritual gestalts) can and do ‘transmigrate’ because I think Jesus’ statements referencing ‘the way’ to ‘the Father’, ‘everlasting life’, etc. must be [rationally, I would add!] interpreted with such and related ideas in mind for what he meant thereby to be meaningfully understood and wisely utilized.]

Surely you are aware of the extent of the TOMES! of 'spiritual' opinion based on what amount to gross speculation that 'spiritualists' of every stripe as being articulations of absolute KNOWLEDGE of TRUTH!

Just want to keep the playing field level (instead of simply going along with your 'TILT , not that there's anything 'wrong' with having personal predilections and preferences in the above regard).

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Is this missing the forest for the trees?
The canyon itself could be the carved-out manifestation of a flood or floods?
Conventional wisdom says that this happened gradually over millions of years. But what if it was more sudden? There is evidence that tremendous floods occurred when ice-age glaciers covering huge expanses almost consuming the whole hemisphere melted during protracted recession and enormous amounts of water were melted by volcanic activity, ice-dammed, and periodically released in gigantic raging abrasive-infused floods.

Could have happened.........
but everything you mentioned were from
different time period separated in many
cases by millions of years.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Ahhh, you clearly don't see (experience) the wonder and magic taking place right here, right now in and by way of all of the colorful ideas and thoughts being shared and danced with here NOW, as the sunset and winter of our present civilation approaches. My guess is that internet itself will go completely 'dark' in the next five to fifteen, or thirty at most, years. Shhh, seeing the immensity of such prospect now!

That's just a 'nudge' as you put it to get you, if that's at all possible, to stop 'looking down your nose' at what I see and experience as being quite a amazing (because the the 'dance' of 'mind' is much more than that of the dance of physical molecules which constitute our 'atmosphere' as they reflect physical rays of our 'sun') happening. Talk about boxing yourself 'out' of a display of Life that's going on right in front of you, snobglow.

I have no idea what brought you to assume I am looking down my nose or don't find wonder and magic at what is taking place at present., davidsun.

Or are you just baiting me?

See you simply are twisting my words and just looking at exactly what you claim I am. I enjoy science as much as spiritual matters.

Disagree if you do, but cool it with the name calling. Really adds nothing to discussion or bring further understanding.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

I have no idea what brought you to assume I am looking down my nose or don't find wonder and magic at what is taking place at present., davidsun.

Or are you just baiting me?

See you simply are twisting my words and just looking at exactly what you claim I am. I enjoy science as much as spiritual matters.

Disagree if you do, but cool it with the name calling. Really adds nothing to discussion or bring further understanding.

Originally Posted by Moonglow
Wonder if at times if the search for reason(s) diminish the sense of wonder in ways. Over rationalizing.

That's how your above statement about 'reason(s)' (presumably by others) diminishing wonder and being 'excessive' rationalizing came across to me. Lots of wonderful reasoning(s) going on here, IMO.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Originally Posted by Moonglow
Wonder if at times if the search for reason(s) diminish the sense of wonder in ways. Over rationalizing.

That's how your above statement about 'reason(s)' (presumably by others) diminishing wonder and being 'excessive' rationalizing came across to me. Lots of wonderful reasoning(s) going on here, IMO.

That is your view point and does not excuse the manner in which you presented your viewpoint towards me. That is how you came across to me.

I may disagree with you, at times, but don't go about making presumption about your character or call you names.

As to what I said, it is more a reflection upon when over analyzing things if in that the simple wonder of it get deminished.

Not a slam against anyone here or upon exchanging ideas, thought, insights, ect.

Just a wondering on my part. Yes, the discussion is interesting and have enjoyed reading through this thread. Widens the field for me.

If you take it the way you do, OK. Just say so without all the personal assumptions being thrown in towards me.

I don't live in the clouds, I am right here, right now and it is a wonder and fascinating what has been, is being, and can yet be. Just saying, for me, sometimes the wonder and magic is felt when just letting it unfold before me.

Also, enjoy exploring and exchanging thoughts.

Just clarifying myself a bit here.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

That is your view point and does not excuse the manner in which you presented your viewpoint towards me. That is how you came across to me.

Please note that I regard the 'manner' in which you expressed your opinion about what you saw as 'over'-rationalization 'inexcusable' as well. Hence, my 'critical' characterization - which obviously came as a bolt out of the blue to you because you are so used to considering the opinion your expressed and the way you expressed it so seemingly (merely) logical as to be 'innocuous'.