It isn't ONE Self it is Self that is all there is ..

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

H
Regardless of what may be, beyond "all that is", the mystics point us to one of the core foundational truths, which is that we come to know ourselves most fully (truly) in relationship. Whether in relationship to ourselves, to Ourself, or to ourselves (in community, with one another).


7L

Hey,

Fore sure there is a knowing of ourselves through relationships had with both ourselves and everything else .

This is the mind mirror of duality experienced where we can see ourselves in other's or not .

Beyond all this there isn't this knowing of what we are with this mirror in effect .
This is why I say there is simply being what you are beyond the mind .

There are no reflections, or knowings of Consciousness or what purity is or what God is or how the bloody universe ticks or came to be .

So whenever I hear a peep talking about realisations of the world being an illusion or that duality is an illusion or there is only One, they are not realised at all .

It's all very straightforward . One needs to understand this or have the comparison .

This is why respectfully saying, I will question anyone who declares otherwise .

Just to understand how they conclude what they do ..



x daz x

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I think it's common to struggle with accepting the truth of that which we are ("at centre"). It's difficult for many if not most to come to terms with the simple reality and stark beauty of the naked, unvarnished self (which some call individuated consciousness, or soul, or core being, etc). That which we are is utterly real -- it is enduring but not static. The physical or temporal realm is also real, even if not enduring. The only things which are illusory or unreal are either our unawakened awareness (for some) or our persistent denial of the truths of our awakened awareness (for others).

Since this thread is about non-dualism and my perspective is that of Advaita I'm going to frame my reply in that context.

The concept that unvarnished self is individuated (consciousness, soul, core being, etc) is the ignorance at the heart of all suffering. This is the illusion of the ego-self (Ahamkara), of it appropriating consciousness or being as its own. I am conscious, you are conscious, he and she are conscious and even more fundamentally I am, you are, he and she are. The Advaita view is Consciousness (Chit) just is and doesn't belong to an individuated being but illumines individuated beings. Lends Its Existence (Sat) to them and combined with Its Conscious illumination (Chit) is the feeling of individuated mind-bodies with individuated consciousness. It's the reflection in the mirror assuming the mantle of Face.

Ultimate Reality is that of Sat-Chit-Ananda and what we, as individuated embodied beings, experience is transactional reality which is wholly dependent upon That. One has inherent Existence and the other dependent existence. One is unchanging infinite potentiality and the multiplicity are the changing temporal manifestations of That infinite potentiality. A multiplicity of infinite changing patterns inextricably woven into One fabric of Existence.

"Rise thou effulgent one, rise thou who art always pure, rise thou birthless and deathless, rise almighty, and manifest thy true nature. These little manifestations do not befit thee." ~ Swami Vivekananda

https://excellencereporter.com/2019/...-goal-of-life/

Each soul is potentially divine. The goal is to manifest this divinity by controlling nature, external and internal. Do this either by work, or worship, or psychic control, or philosophy – by one, or more, or all of these – and be free. This is the whole of religion. Doctrines, or dogmas, or rituals, or books, or temples, or forms, are but secondary details.

Man is to become divine by realizing the divine. Idols or temples, or churches or books, are only the supports, the help of his spiritual childhood. The ultimate goal of all mankind, the aim and end of all religions, is but one — reunion with God, or what amounts to the same, with the divinity which is every man’s true nature.

Notice Vivekananda says each soul is potentially divine. This is a distinction between a multiplicity of souls and One Soul (Divinity). The difference between a multiplicity of consciousness and One Consciousness illumining the multiplicity and giving the appearance of individuation.

As gently as possible and with all good intention I ask this one question. If any of this is disturbing I ask what is disturbed? Is it the Divine or one of Its little manifestations?

This question is worthy of deep contemplation and exploration. All the traditions and all the philosophies and all the teachings and all the practices are but the finger pointing. The seeker alone walks in that direction, but with the guidance and support of a chosen path. One needs a map when navigating uncharted territory. A map informs direction but will not carry one to the destination.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I hear you asking for our individual truths, illuminations, and perspectives, those which come straight from our centre. I agree that at a certain point, this is exactly how we communicate and how we need to communicate. I would say that wisdom traditions written in the voices of others, for all their power and insight and guidance, at a certain point cannot and do not substitute for your own awakened perspective and illuminations and voice -- which is your contribution and which is needed to bring further understanding to that which is yours to illuminate and discuss.


7L

Hey,

Yes this is all I am doing .. and I agree that it is how we need to communicate if we are going to have open and honest conversations .

I have had disagreements with you, Slade, Mikey and many other's but they don't insult me or dodge questions or make me out to be the bad guy or the arrogant guy simply for questioning their beliefs .

What the heck is that all about .. Where does that come from, simply for asking a bloody question .

Where that doesn't come from is from where it needs to come from, like you say, from the centre of ourselves . From the truth of oneself . Or from where we know of ourselves .

Not from this place of ugliness of wanting to put other's down, simply because it puts a question mark on their beliefs .

There is a lesson there to be learn't but some ignore what is true and would rather keep up the pretence rather than accept something about themselves .

It's hard talking, and shooting from the hip but I don't care if it doesn't make me popular lol .


x daz x

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by janielee

It occurs to me that for many years, perhaps even now not completely, I didn't realize I had COMPLETE freedom. Spiritual practice uncovers this in a clearer way.

Thanks

Yes there is freedom and along with freedom comes lot of responsibility .

Like in any physical sport , there are penalties and punishment for reckless use of freedom and there are rewards for
following freedom with responsibility , skill and due regards to laws of the sport called 'life' .

It is quite possible that many may have succeeded in this game of life in terms of money,power,relationships , fame ,posterity etc (for variety of reasons which are unnecessary for this discussion) and may feel all talks of spirituality/non-duality etc are for weak and feeble incapable to
play the game of life and for people who are incapable of achieving anything. It may not be possible to discern the hand of unseen power in their accomplishments . And indeed there may be lot of people who may really fit the aforesaid descriptions .

Equally there may be opposite set of people who may not had all such successes and attribute all talks of spirituality in terms of this worldly matters only. There may be many so-called spiritual who may fit the aforesaid descriptions too.

In such a milieu, there is great scope for everyone to realize the rules of the game in their own way and in their own timeline and in their environment. This wonderful forum being part of this big life , we have tried our best to explain reality in our own ways . And i trust and believe life has tremendous potential to accommodate variety yet without violating its own way of working .

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Point being, I think the desire to lose oneself in Oneness is another way in which we may seek to deal with the dissonance at centre, when not yet reconciled and right aligned with centre. Folks may desire to skip all the brutally hard bits and just dissolve or meld into One, abnegating their individuality and all that is theirs to be and do and contribute to all that is.


7L

Well, there certainly isn't any harm in the dangling carrot to help us through difficult times, but there certainly is something in that where peeps don't want to address self issues ..

Putting things off in the long run doesn't magically remove aspects of self that remain lol .. Brushing things under the carpet just leaves a mound that gets bigger and bigger, big enough to one day trip you up

No one say's it's easy and I think the way of the world of late brings to the fore plenty to look at, and integration happens naturally where we kinda embrace the good and the bad self aspects .. it kinda smoothes out and blends or dissolves .. and maybe certain conditionings arise and fall every now and then and that's okay isn't it .

It's to recognise these traits ... I know of late when I am exhausted with work and travelling and the stresses of the day I can be overwhelmed with grief of my parents passing over of late, but I know that after I get home, have a run, do some meditation and self healing I am seeing differently ..

It's about getting to know these patterns and being okay with how things arise and for why they do .

There is a line drawn however when how you feel impacts on other's in ways where other's are upset in someway because of one's expression for whatever reason .

When these things are not self addressed through honesty then we have more than a mound to trip us up we have a mountain to climb .

That's when I dare say one has their eyes firmly on the carrot and perhaps nothing much else, for it's too difficult to envisage getting over it -


x daz x

Originally Posted by God-Like

You fail to understand the question I ask . I ask you by WHAT MEANS you conclude that what you are is PURE CONSCIOUSNESS .

To say you had a realisation that you are consciousness is not correct is it .

It's not truthful is it .

THERE IS NO REALISATION THAT BRINGS TO THE FORE THAT YOU ARE CONSCIOUSNESS .

It's a made up word isn't it .

Please understand this or talk me through your realisation of the word Pure Consciousness that came into your awareness via the mind .

There is NO DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF KNOWING THIS because like said it's made up in mind .

All of you ball busting peeps here that are giving me a hard time for asking these questions need to take a good look at what I am saying and think about what you are saying ..


x daz x

In essence and what it seems to me you are saying is there's only intellectual realization. What I'm saying is there's both intellectual and experiential realization. My experience is intellectual realization comes first, and if sufficiently motivational to the point of dogged pursuit it can be followed by experiential realization. I've heard the reverse is possible but much more rare.

To muddy the waters even further (LOL!) my initial intellectual realization wasn't robust in the sense of traditional spiritual teachings, however the experiential realization that followed, the flash of Awakening, led me to pursue intellectual realization much further and along more traditional lines of inquiry, and that would be Advaita Vedanta.

Why is this is so disturbing?

[muffin]

Originally Posted by ant

G'day muffin,

I get more pleasure watching grass grow.: )

Funny you should say that, been doing just that, after laying a new lawn 4 weeks ago

[Native spirit]

Please keep this topic polite what we need to understand is that Everyone has their own opinion.



Namaste

Originally Posted by God-Like

It's to recognise these traits ... I know of late when I am exhausted with work and travelling and the stresses of the day I can be overwhelmed with grief of my parents passing over of late, but I know that after I get home, have a run, do some meditation and self healing I am seeing differently ..

My heartfelt condolences

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hey there Daz
Perhaps consciousness cannot know itself without both the One and the multitudes. Or perhaps One can go where the multitudes cannot.
OR, perhaps it has more to do with the quality of the knowing.7L

Hey there stranger


I've had a couple of instances when my consciousness was set apart from everything else, there was just my conscious all on its lonesome. It was dark but a comfortable kind of dark but I guess that was just 'translation' for the mind. There was nothing but my consciousness to be conscious of, no external input and nothing internal - not even body, mind, memories..... There was just an experience of I am, nothing else.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

The mystics say that One brought "all that is" into being to know itself more fully, i.e, through a desire to know itself more fully (truly). That is, without experiencing all that is (including us), One could not fully know itself.

There's the story of how God was sitting there, all alone in the night. Then he asked the question that changed the Universe forever - he asked "Who am I?" In order to find out he split himself in two and here we are today. Now while it's not a very Spiritually technical tale it gives me a lot of understanding.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Regardless of what may be, beyond "all that is", the mystics point us to one of the core foundational truths, which is that we come to know ourselves most fully (truly) in relationship. Whether in relationship to ourselves, to Ourself, or to ourselves (in community, with one another).

As Alan Watts put it, "If you didn't have en echo you wouldn't know you're alive." When I 'didn't have an echo' alive wasn't the word I would have used. This is a Journey to Self after all, and there are things far beyond the spiritual ideologies and theologies that we have yet to discover.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I think it's common to struggle with accepting the truth of that which we are ("at centre"). It's difficult for many if not most to come to terms with the simple reality and stark beauty of the naked, unvarnished self (which some call individuated consciousness, or soul, or core being, etc). That which we are is utterly real -- it is enduring but not static. The physical or temporal realm is also real, even if not enduring. The only things which are illusory or unreal are either our unawakened awareness (for some) or our persistent denial of the truths of our awakened awareness (for others).

That's a tale of the Ahamkara and the Persona and taking away the masks, and being honest about what's behind the facades and narrative. Often our greatest weaknesses are our greatest strengths and sometimes our highest Spirituality is to be human after all.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

This is why Oneness is not only love but also presence, so that we learn to live within the awareness of presence...so that we learn to live in the light of spirit (i.e., in authentic love). Presence supports us and bolsters us with the sublime joy of being. Such that the Oneness becomes trusted and familiar and welcome...and no longer feels either cold or distant, or oppressive and nullifying. In this way, in the circle of belonging, we also come to be familiar with our own presence, and the presence of those souls closest to us. So we can learn to recognise, love, and accept our own presence, as well as the presence of those souls closest to us.

For many - me included - that's the highest mountain to climb.