It isn't ONE Self it is Self that is all there is ..

[Godspark]

The analogy I often use is that we are like drops of water in the ocean, or like grains of sand on a beach. Maybe one day the drop of water will go back into the ocean, or someone will build a giant sand castle.

I also like the idea of bubbles, that you can make your bubble bigger until one day it either gets so big that it encompasses everything or it pops and you become one with the air, no longer confined inside the bubble or restricted by it. Which would be akin to using methods of expanding your awareness and accumulating more knowledge and wisdom.

We are all individual beings with the illusion that we are separate, as though god split himself off into smaller pieces, we experience reality through consciousness and god is the awareness behind consciousness. The "I am" or passive/non-judgmental awareness that simply exists "As is". The quality and attributes of consciousness are the same across all beings when you think about it, we might differ from person to person in terms of our beliefs, expectations, perceptions and level of awareness, but consciousness itself is unchanging, it has an indescribable quality to it that is the same across everything else that is conscious if you know what I mean, like you have the same type of consciousness as I do.

If there was a big bang that started it all, then at that point in time we were all connected as one being, we are still connected today just not in the same way. There is spatial distance between us, but we still breathe in the same air, and that air connects us, we are also connected through the elements, molecules and chemicals, the same electromagnetic frequencies, energies and vibrations, you could even say connected in time.

I have heard someone before say that we are just here to have different experiences within the 'God-continuum'. What if there was a big bang, and at the end there is a big crush or implosion. This might be the inevitable outcome that once we all realize we are one, we start to converge and integrate until we become that one being again. Like what they say in the law of one material that we ascend and become collective conscious groups, groups of minds that think alike and join to become a group, then you have groups merging with other groups until it all becomes one.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Godspark

The analogy I often use is that we are like drops of water in the ocean, or like grains of sand on a beach. Maybe one day the drop of water will go back into the ocean, or someone will build a giant sand castle.

I also like the idea of bubbles, that you can make your bubble bigger until one day it either gets so big that it encompasses everything or it pops and you become one with the air, no longer confined inside the bubble or restricted by it. Which would be akin to using methods of expanding your awareness and accumulating more knowledge and wisdom.

We are all individual beings with the illusion that we are separate, as though god split himself off into smaller pieces, we experience reality through consciousness and god is the awareness behind consciousness. The "I am" or passive/non-judgmental awareness that simply exists "As is". The quality and attributes of consciousness are the same across all beings when you think about it, we might differ from person to person in terms of our beliefs, expectations, perceptions and level of awareness, but consciousness itself is unchanging, it has an indescribable quality to it that is the same across everything else that is conscious if you know what I mean, like you have the same type of consciousness as I do.

If there was a big bang that started it all, then at that point in time we were all connected as one being, we are still connected today just not in the same way. There is spatial distance between us, but we still breathe in the same air, and that air connects us, we are also connected through the elements, molecules and chemicals, the same electromagnetic frequencies, energies and vibrations, you could even say connected in time.

I have heard someone before say that we are just here to have different experiences within the 'God-continuum'. What if there was a big bang, and at the end there is a big crush or implosion. This might be the inevitable outcome that once we all realize we are one, we start to converge and integrate until we become that one being again. Like what they say in the law of one material that we ascend and become collective conscious groups, groups of minds that think alike and join to become a group, then you have groups merging with other groups until it all becomes one.

There are many analogies that work quite well that you have pointed out ..

What I normally say is that there is only what you are ..

Now when we experience what that is of this world, then there is perception of it in some shape or form .

This reflects our individuality, while not being separate from what we are .

It's impossible for there to be only what we are and being separate from it .

Of course, the perception had can bring a very strong sense of not being whole or unified with the rest of the universe and that is true if felt, otherwise one would not feel as they do .

From one perspective it's true that one is not unified or whole when there is a feeling of lack, and it's also true that the drop in the ocean isn't the entirety of the ocean so there has to be some context issues that need to be ironed out before an individual can declare that they are the ocean in entirety .

Just as there needs to be a context alert when an individual say's there is no self present .



x daz x

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey you

I like the way you explained that ... This I res with .

This is the difference between someone who can understand beyond ness as well as one can comprehend and another who runs around pretending no one is here or the world is a dream etc etc .

It's not realised at all . Consciousness is made up, it's not realised .

All these statements that I come across about Self realisation means this and that makes no bleeding sense to me ..

This is what happens when you question these statements, they either don't answer you, change the subject or put you down lol .

All because of a simple question


x daz x

Hey Teds It's been literally a hundred pages since I was here a few weeks back, hahaha....but I'll just pick up where I left off

Well..it's all about "Being There", isn't it?
If you are doing there and being there (from your heart centre), then you can speak to your experiences of oneness (at whatever level or in whatever fashion) from a grounded place or way of being. Whether speaking of the mundane and/or the esoteric.

I might also say that IMO a key part of Being There is simply that what you are and who you are are not apart from what it is you speak or or profess to think or believe. Recognising and putting your hands around the integrity gap at centre is a part of your journey that you honour, and one that you consciously and willingly strive to address.

Peace & blessings Teds
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

I have had chats with folk that swear black and blue that non conceptual pointers are the truth of what was realised .

Hey Teds :) Well...I agree "ultimate truth" is not something any of us can ever definitively lay claim to, that's for certain.

I do wonder however if perhaps some of the difference (not all, mind you) that we may encounter has to do with how folks experience their perceptions. What I mean is that when some folks, for example, say, "I had an NDE, or an epiphany" or "Jesus came to me", etc., and are asked to describe it (as best they can)...some say it was a feeling...there were no visuals, no tangibles. Or they say Jesus came as a presence...no visuals, no tangibles. Or, "I felt the presence of God" or "I spoke to God"...but there is no visual, no audio...nothing but the spiritual sense. As opposed to the "usual" senses.

I think this may actually be fairly common. But some of us are wired differently. We DO see and hear and can have some experience of touch and smell and taste and other senses in spirit. We do have access to "regular" communication in spirit, as well as illumination and direct or innate "speech". We may also do energy work which grounds us at a very fundamental level...IOW, we connect differently with spirit. I work with guides and mentors...I do not speak or work with or pray much to anything nameless or faceless. Sometimes, but not often.

For those of us who seek and often experience a very broad range of more concrete spiritual experiences, the experiences of others can seem very abstract or vague. Meaning, if I spoke to Jesus, he had to show up for me and present himself somehow, and we had a face-to-face conversation And yes, I am not a christian but I did this on a few occasions. Being ageless in spirit (and clean shaven hahaha), Jesus is a shiny "youth" by appearance...who knew, right? LOL!!!

So...I wonder if the experiences of others may seem more foreign to some of us because they are experienced in a more abstract way. In my own experience, as you walk your path, you move to a more grounded place and speak based on deeply textured experiences...but it may be that even so, many folks may have a less concrete experience in spirit, more pure feeling or presence. For me, that would be profoundly foreign and alienating...but for many, it may be just the ticket (?) What do you think?

As you can imagine conversations from this point on become weirder and weirder and insults cool of their tongue lol .

What I find is that peeps in these instances dig deeper and deeper and will hold onto to their beliefs whether one is in denial or not and continue to put another down .

This is the hypocrisy, the irony, the contradiction, that myself and others have pointed out who have experienced the same abuse .

Is this the behaviour of someone who proclaims they know Self and oneness .. and all that jazz . Of course not .

This is why some become so blinded by their own expression, that they cannot even see how it actually looks .

x daz x

Agreed that things have got really weird all over. Also that, no matter what, it is always all about lovingkindness, for certain. For me, this gets back to being grounded(Be Here Now and Be Love Now, per Ram Dass) so that we can more easily be true to who we are at centre. And so that we can be steadfast and stout of heart, resist the changing whims and taking out any momentary or unkind moods on others.

Peace & blessings Teds
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey Panda,

Just picking out things as I go along, been busy with work ..

I have learned a lot through life by suffering at the hands of another where mental and emotional abuse was rife as you know .

So basically something is not quite right in all honesty when peeps are expressing unkindness and dishonesty to other's and self .

In my life thus far I have learned a great deal about the inns and outs of peoples expression and it helps me gauge where another is at within themselves on certain levels .

Dishonesty, denial and unkind expressions aimed towards other's shows a lack of love of themselves .

Hey Teds :)
Yes, it does. Proceed with equanimity, courtesy and a good measure of caution, generally speaking...well anyway that's what I do Because, unfortunately, many are in that place where they are still struggling to accept what is, and without that, we have no clear or solid perspective on what was nor what may yet come to be.

This is the irony in all this with grand masters declaring the absolute truth about Self .

It doesn't work, this is why I said to running a while back that a Self realised peep won't kill a fly out of irritation while being in total bliss .

Is doesn't work . It's simply a matter of fact .

Just as it doesn't snow in a heatwave lol .

You're right, broadly speaking. And to be honest, your example is a good one. I am a LOT more aware of insects that I used to be. We don't want too many in our homes, though (LOL) some are meant to be there. But they are so necessary for life on our planet, and their numbers are under stress. So I try to take most of the insects I find in the loo back outside (they all love the light & water fixtures), and leave the spiders be per usual...the agreement is they are supposed to stay in the basement

What I have found common is for peeps to want to deflect and make it out that it is you that is the problem even though one has stood true on the matter from the start .

I think this is a spiritual problem in all areas of life and society, TBH. We are struggling to come to terms with what the reality actually is, and what the implications are.

For example in the US we hear many folks saying we've got to move our society forward because we've had some folks who are trying to roll things back to the 50s or w/e. It's true some are trying to roll back key civil laws and such. But in truth, what's going on is that many other folks there have not yet ever accepted that some changes were put in place 60 years ago. Or 30 years ago. Etc. And likewise, this is also true in the UK. And elsewhere in the West, as well. So it is only JUST NOW that many are struggling to come to terms with change or progress or expansive movement that was put forward 50 or 100 years ago. And many are still resisting.

Society has never fundamentally moved forward as a whole on some of these issues...and as we try to ensure human rights for all, we have to reframe our notion that we were solidly "there". "There" is still a place we are striving to reach. And I think that if we want to create and sustain "a more perfect union" (lovely words per US Constitution), we need to know where we all stand right now. I.e., we have to accept the reality of what is, which is that humanity and society still have a long way to go.

This I found with seeing my mum get blamed for being too spiritual by her partner who was simply jealous of her and lacking any real self honestly .

The abuse she got from being true to herself and others was rife for many years .

I'm sorry for that. It's a common problem. I have been hugely mocked by many in the past when I say I need to get to know and care for someone and I'm not down with casual shagging. Some have got hostile or have begun to shout or act rudely. Regardless of the topic...this is how many act when they come up against those who differ. And also, when they come up against those who are grounded and can't be pressured or forced or shamed or mocked into being other than who they are.

The main issue as I see it is the hole that one digs deeper and deeper for oneself who isn't honest and true to begin with .

I had an ongoing conversation elsewhere with a group of people where some would proclaim truth realisations and because some of us wouldn't agree with that in the way that they described we were abused and discredited and put down because we hadn't had this particular realisation they had .

When questioned they couldn't answer anything in relation to what they ACTUALLY realised and all they could offer was pointers that were conceptual but just as truthful as the non conceptual .

It made no sense whatsoever and over time everything got twisted and morphed and insults were rife ... all down to questioning their initial statement made in truth .

What comes to mind is the guidance in my spiritual tradition (one of them anyway), that there should always be at least one minority view on any topic, if not several. Even if there is a consensus view, it should always have, welcome, and be open to minority views, challengers and different perspectives.

And that is what resonates fundamentally...the primary commandment that we welcome strangers and neighbours with lovingkindness, seek justice with compassion, care for the vulnerable and marginalised, and accept and honour our differences. In love. That is IMO the best of any tradition anyway.

We are all at different stages within ourselves, it's just a little as I said ironic to see this behaviour on a spiritual platform .

This is why I have always asked peeps to address what they initially said and what I actually said and ask why was there the put downs . What created the insults and put downs . One really has to be honest with oneself, but on a public forum one rarely does that .

x daz x

It's hard. Setting the example with lovingkindness and equanimity is you can do...but that's quite a bit, so it's more than enough really

Peace & blessings Teds

7L

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

So...I wonder if the experiences of others may seem more foreign to some of us because they are experienced in a more abstract way. In my own experience, as you walk your path, you move to a more grounded place and speak based on deeply textured experiences...but it may be that even so, many folks may have a less concrete experience in spirit, more pure feeling or presence. For me, that would be profoundly foreign and alienating...but for many, it may be just the ticket (?) What do you think?

During the several weeks when my experience was intense I was out of my mind, and quite literally. The only way I can even begin to relate it is I was witnessing mind and body, and through mind and body everything else. Even as I sit here typing and when I pay attention I'm there, though not as intense or all-pervasive.

From a neuroscientific perspective our entire experience is a construct of mind, a virtual reality, the phenomenal representation within mind of the external noumenom, and consciousness is all part of the mix, an emergent quality of mind. My experience is of Consciousness being beyond mind, where instead of consciousness being an emergent quality of mind, mind (and body and everything else) is an emergent quality of and within Consciousness.

It was an abstract concept until I experienced it, and then it was more concrete than the concreteness of objective reality.

If we want to say the mind realizes this, sure. If we want to say the mind experiences this that's correct too, but after the fact and not directly. The direct experience is that of the Witness. In philosophy of mind it's called qualia and it's before thought. It's the direct experience of red and not the thoughts after the fact of how deep, soft, sharp or pleasing to the eye the red is. It's the "Hard Problem of Consciousness" and leads some philosophers of mind to consider panpsychism, David Chalmers being one.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hey there 7L. if that's the case, can I have your address please? They most likely didn't know it.

Desirable timelines aren't the ones that are conducive to any kind of progress. And yes we did re-invent fascism on a personal level but then we did the same with political correctness, so welcome to evolution at society's finest level.

Hey there GL. I agree and disagree with desirable timelines being unconducive to progress. But it's true that there is much humanity still has to learn and work through at present. I also perceive that we can always create more desirable human community that works better for all, but that we have to build it...and thus own it from the ground up. No shortcuts and engagement and effort will always be a given.

How do I perceive that? I look forward and grab the threads and see what they reveal. I.e., in my own way, I see where the spectrum of probability lies and where it may lie going forward, depending on intention-to-action in this moment and future moments in between. It's doable. So, it's on us to live sustainably and chart a proper course. But it won't happen magically and it won't be sustained on intentions alone. We all need to take ownership of humanity's path, and that means ideally everyone needs to be reasonably empowered and supported to take conscious choices.

His philosphy got down to brass tacks I think, he took away much of the airy-fairiness and told it like it was. It's pragmatic and that's what we need sometimes.

The great thing about philosophy is that it provides a conceptual framework for the current state and limits of humanity, as seen by one person. That is also the problem with philosophy

We are capable of more and we can purpose our transcendence to greater things than slinging excrement and dying for poop. Though I am not discounting that he was attuned to life under oppressive contexts and regimes, and of how little of their human dignity the oppressed and the imprisoned are allowed to retain.

What I am saying is that, while recognising how bad it's been for much of humanity's history living under the thumb of the powerful and the oppressive, we can go far beyond accepting amoral utilitarianism and "might makes right" as a de facto way of organising humanity.

Without individuality Oneness is meaningless, and this is what most people don't understand. Perhaps if we understood more about ourselves from a Spiritual perspective rather than focussing on ideologies and theologies things might change for the better.

Agreed that it starts with alignment at centre, with awareness, and with being and doing in awareness from centre. Ideally, with courtesy and kindness but certainly with ownership. Own it, and if it's rubbish, deal with it and (hopefully) over the span of whenever, move toward lovingkindness and compassionate justice toward self, others, and all that is.

Thank you. I can't remember the exact quote but it's around a tall ship sailing with more magnificence when it's slightly athwart the wind. So "Give me a tall ship and a star to steer her by."

Said Jason and the Argonauts. The only thing that did him in was the sacred speaking oak of Dodona from Athena, which rendered truth and prophecy from the prow of the ship. When Jason broke his sacred oath and lost his way, the beam fell and struck him down, LOL... But yes, if we mind our ways and mend our ways as we navigate, then it all sounds pretty good to me...

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

During the several weeks when my experience was intense I was out of my mind, and quite literally. The only way I can even begin to relate it is I was witnessing mind and body, and through mind and body everything else. Even as I sit here typing and when I pay attention I'm there, though not as intense or all-pervasive.

Hello there JustGuy...so I see you've been reading all the nutter headlines of late ...which has also nearly driven me mad. But seriously...I hope that you're doing better and sometimes trauma can cause a disassociation of sorts. What's been going on in the world over the last weeks, months, and years has been pretty traumatic, that's for certain.

From a neuroscientific perspective our entire experience is a construct of mind, a virtual reality, the phenomenal representation within mind of the external noumenom, and consciousness is all part of the mix, an emergent quality of mind. My experience is of Consciousness being beyond mind, where instead of consciousness being an emergent quality of mind, mind (and body and everything else) is an emergent quality of and within Consciousness.

It was an abstract concept until I experienced it, and then it was more concrete than the concreteness of objective reality.

Yes, the "reality" appears to be that all is ultimately emergent from Consciousness, and we (individuated consciousness) are a fractal of the One. However, so is (in their various ways) all that is, from the multiverse, galaxies, stars, planets, oceans, mountains, soil, and plant and animal life. What we are in the physical sense is no less "real" than what we are in terms of consciousness or energy. It is simply that the physical realm is temporal (time bound) in ways that aspects of consciousness and energy are not.

If we want to say the mind realizes this, sure. If we want to say the mind experiences this that's correct too, but after the fact and not directly. The direct experience is that of the Witness. In philosophy of mind it's called qualia and it's before thought. It's the direct experience of red and not the thoughts after the fact of how deep, soft, sharp or pleasing to the eye the red is. It's the "Hard Problem of Consciousness" and leads some philosophers of mind to consider panpsychism, David Chalmers being one.

So...if I want to address this in the way that I would with Daz, we would begin with the assumption that we are both more or less centred in this moment in awakened heart, with awakened mind in service to heart.

If we are not starting from this place of understanding, it could be more challenging to address the lack of synchronicity in our perceptions or even use of terms. I get that you are addressing and speaking to one aspect of the discussion.

For myself, I am speaking about the "concrete" experience of what you might call psychic sensory development in spirit. The development of many of these perceptive means of apprehension in the so-called intangible realm of consciousness and spirit is a personal thing, and if and when desired or attained, it is always oriented to your own personal journey.

I was saying to Daz that some of us are wired to experience spirit in this way and it is a richly textured experience that may not be needed or desired by all. However it is second nature for some of us. We have clear conversations, etc., with guides or whomever. And yes, I "see" them however they present themselves. Typically, there is no subterfuge and everyone is simply who they are...and expresses themselves directly and honestly. Authentically. This is of course the model I follow for myself in my day-to-day life, as should we all IMO. Ideally, there should be no gap (no integrity gap) between who we are at centre (what some call in spirit or our higher selves, etc) and who we are day-to-day. Between what we profess to believe, what we actually believe, and how we act and speak day to day. And where gaps exist, I strive to become more aware and to close them...which means yes, doing the hard work, taking ownership, and getting "real".

For myself, I am not nearly as attuned to abstract discussions of spiritual experience without personal engagement (and ideally also concrete forms of spiritual sensory perception). I do get that many others rely more on presence (which I also get) and feelings, some of which are very abstract, when they connect with spirit. But it is a very different way of experiencing the world. I always seek to integrate, centre, and bring it down to the concrete level of who are you in this moment, and how do you live, act, and speak day-to-day? How does this align with whatever it is that you profess or believe? Whether spiritual, ethical, moral, etc., as really it's all one and the same, ultimately.

Peace & blessings
7L

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hey Teds It's been literally a hundred pages since I was here a few weeks back, hahaha....but I'll just pick up where I left off

Well..it's all about "Being There", isn't it?
If you are doing there and being there (from your heart centre), then you can speak to your experiences of oneness (at whatever level or in whatever fashion) from a grounded place or way of being. Whether speaking of the mundane and/or the esoteric.

I might also say that IMO a key part of Being There is simply that what you are and who you are are not apart from what it is you speak or or profess to think or believe. Recognising and putting your hands around the integrity gap at centre is a part of your journey that you honour, and one that you consciously and willingly strive to address.

Peace & blessings Teds
7L

Hey Panda, hope you are well

From what I know / experience there is a way about you or about self that mirrors what you proclaim about self lol .

If you're a guru type for use of a better word, you're simply not behaving in a particular way that puts another down and deflects amongst other things .

You speak about coming form the heart and a place of being grounded .. this is how I see it myself .

I have had convo's here where I am being criticised for standing my ground and not having my face slapped by other's simply for asking questions lol . I should rise above it all where all the attention is on me for not putting up with it rather than addressing the abusers lol .

It's bonkers .. but like you say, coming form a grounded-ness and from the heart wouldn't reflect in someone to stand up for themselves in the first place, this is why it doesn't add up .

You have peeps coming from a higher spiritual position acting and behaving like an ar$ehole trying to put other's down who are genuinely being honest and coming from the heart .

I think this is a general pattern of behaviour to be honest, I certainly have experienced this most of my life in some shape or form .

It's worth speaking about tbh because I think many peeps, like yourself have experienced the same abuse in some shape or form .

As I said to another forum member, I just don't suffer fools gladly anymore, I will put the record straight without any hesitation .

The world needs peeps to weed out the ****. more than ever .


x daz x

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

So...if I want to address this in the way that I would with Daz, we would begin with the assumption that we are both more or less centred in this moment in awakened heart, with awakened mind in service to heart.

If we are not starting from this place of understanding, it could be more challenging to address the lack of synchronicity in our perceptions or even use of terms. I get that you are addressing and speaking to one aspect of the discussion.

For myself, I am speaking about the "concrete" experience of what you might call psychic sensory development in spirit. The development of many of these perceptive means of apprehension in the so-called intangible realm of consciousness and spirit is a personal thing, and if and when desired or attained, it is always oriented to your own personal journey.

For myself, I am not nearly as attuned to abstract discussions of spiritual experience without personal engagement (and ideally also concrete forms of spiritual sensory perception). I do get that many others rely more on presence (which I also get) and feelings, some of which are very abstract, when they connect with spirit. But it is a very different way of experiencing the world. I always seek to integrate, centre, and bring it down to the concrete level of who are you in this moment, and how do you live, act, and speak day-to-day? How does this align with whatever it is that you profess or believe? Whether spiritual, ethical, moral, etc., as really it's all one and the same, ultimately.

Peace & blessings
7L

I "see" it from both sides of the coin. I'm fully aware of and don't dismiss the experience of mind-body as I would a dream, and at the same time I'm palpably aware of That which witnesses the experience of mind-body. The prior is rather easy to relate, the latter not so easy.

Aside from the mundane experiences of embodied being I've also had paranormal experiences, most minor that I could write off to coincidence and bias if they weren't so frequent and a handful not so minor.

I think some of the rub is a perception the impersonal experience somehow invalidates the personal experience, however I don't see it that way. As I see it that impersonal experience is present for all of us, though perhaps not recognized. I "see" It as That. It's the Extraordinary masquerading as the ordinary. God playing at being not God. How can I dismiss God simply because It's wearing a mask?