WHOM TO WORSHIP SHIVA or KRISHNA ?

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I also noticed that Ajay did not respond to any single allegation that was made with a refute of claim... Just how "disgruntled members" and atheists will spread falsifications about ANY religion!

Allegations have also been made against the likes of Rama, Krishna, Ramakrishna and Buddha by people who have misinterpreted their teachings and life due to conditioned likes and dislikes.

This is an ongoing process. There are many who have profited from their teachings as well, as they could transcend their momentary likes and dislikes to perceive the essence of their teachings.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by NoOne

Yes, I know, I meant that in a general sense. All religions have such practices. They are rather militaristic in a way. Maybe they work for some people, but for me, they're completely abhorrent. I'm just not the kind of person that likes to be told how to live my life and what to do every hour of every day. Others apparently like to lead a monastic life. My only point is that I don't believe any of it is really necessary. One can achieve spiritual awakening and even enlightenment without going to extremes. Of course some self-discipline and a certain amount of daily routine is necessary. I just believe in not taking it too seriously, letting go, relaxing and allowing the process to unfold on its own, in its own time. I always advocate surrender to the divine feminine as the best path to follow.

Anyways, good night for now.

I can fully understand this too!

If any spiritual practice is to be undertaken, it should be because one wants to do it and not because one needs to do it. When someone is forced to do anything against their will, they end up resenting it and becoming bitter.

In an Ashram setting... A monastic setting, of COURSE there needs to be rules and regulations in accordance WITH the aims, ideals and philosophy OF that school/sect/sampradaya and if one disagrees with the "terms of service" or the "conditions of entry" discretion must be applied to ascertain whether or not it is going to be right for THEM and either enter or leave accordingly.

What grinds my gears the most about religion is the total rigidity and exclusion through negation.. Eg "if you dont do this or believe in this small part of it, that is exactly the same as rejecting ALL of it and therefore you don't even qualify to BE a member of this religion" in this day and age, they can't afford to BE so fussy and choosy when recruiting/indoctrinating new members... Or else they shouldn't even bother trying.

For example, lessons and classes may be free in the financial sense, but money is only ONE way that people are expected to "pay" and it is, by no means the ONLY way.

If you are not prepared to be criticised and judged for disbelief simply for asking pertinent questions, one shouldn't be attending such things in the FIRST place, lest they be branded a "disruptive influence" and a "troublemaker" and get royally evicted from the premises by security staff (bouncers)... That has happened to me SO many times now that I have lost count and I did not hurt or abuse anybody... I was punished for having a different opinion.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by ajay00

Allegations have also been made against the likes of Rama, Krishna, Ramakrishna and Buddha by people who have misinterpreted their teachings and life due to conditioned likes and dislikes.

This is an ongoing process. There are many who have profited from their teachings as well, as they could transcend their momentary likes and dislikes to perceive the essence of their teachings.

Conditioning can work both ways. Allow me to provide an example:

If you believe the knowledge and teachings of Krishna and Rama is equal to or surpasses those of the founding members of the Brahma Kumaris movement, then you must be dreaming!

However, I am able to undo conditioning as soon as the knot is tied.

For example, I am now aware that "Shiva BABA" has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Lord Shiva, so a personal error of judgment was made by myself in the referencing.

However, I am still waiting to see actual and individual shlokas from the Vedas mentioning Shiva (or the Shiva Lingam) by EXACT name and not a mere transliteration of the text made by a third party, irrespective of WHO that third party is!

Because some are more CONDTIONED to believe that the sun emanates from this or that Guru's backside a lot MORE than others, isn't it?

Which has nothing to do with "likes" or "dislikes" by the way, because if it were, Satyam itself would be beholdent to human desires.

Now, run that by me again how I don't know what I am talking about... You know, just for the sake of posterity and to keep the "universal status quo" in tact.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[NoOne]

I am personally not that interested in the Shiva vs Krishna debate, it's a bit like Christians debating whether to pray to God or Jesus. Same trinity, different form and that applies to both religions.

As a result of this discussion I am re-reading some of Gopi Krishna's works. I realise that I keep harping on about him, but I have yet to find a better source on Kundalini and Enlightenment, so, with apologies, I will continue referring to him and quoting him.

I have found a few quotes in a Q&A format that are pertinent to this discussion

How can a person go about arousing Kundalini?
As was said, the human body is in a state of evolution. The ultimate aim of this evolu-
tion is to have a higher state of consciousness with an awakened Kundalini. Those men
and women who are already evolved to some extent can arouse Kundalini by spiritual
exercises such as prayer, worship, meditation, and the like. But in all such cases, the
grace of Divinity, which controls human evolution, is essential.

What are the methods to arouse Kundalini?
There are two kinds of methods to arouse Kundalini. The natural method and the forced
or unnatural methods, which were devised by men.

What is the natural method?
As evolution is a natural process, there must be some activity of the human mind which
accelerates this process. This activity is concentration or direction of the mind intensely
on one study or object.

But why is this called the natural method?
From the earliest times, with the development of the rational faculty, man began to ob-
serve attentively and think on natural phenomena. This process automatically developed
his reason also. This shows that the fixation of attention in deep study, be it of a book,
of the heavens, or of any natural occurrence, is the natural method for accelerating
evolution and, side by side with this, of stirring up and awakening Kundalini.

That means when the time is ripe, Kundalini will automatically awaken?
Yes. This is what happens in the case of prophets, seers, mystics, and men and women
of genius.

What are the unnatural methods?
Unnatural methods use the stimulation of the nervous system and the brain, or the re-
straint of breathing, or some such other unnatural process to awaken this power.

Do you think it is necessary to arouse this power by unnatural methods when it comes
naturally, also?
It is not necessary to do so in those cases in which the awakening occurs sponta-
neously. But there are some men and women already ripe for the experience in whom
the presence of the evolutionary impulse on the brain becomes so strong that they are
prepared to make any sacrifice to look beyond the veil. In such cases, when the pressure
on the brain becomes so great that they find no happiness in normal life, it sometimes
becomes necessary to use artificial methods to arouse Kundalini.

Can you explain what happens in the body when artificial methods are used to awaken
Kundalini?
Meditation is a common feature of all forms of exercises designed to awaken Kundalini.
Meditation, combined with restrained breathing, presses on a region in the brain situ-
ated below the crown of the head. When this region starts to function, it forces Kun-
dalini to send streams of energy to feed it.

Isn’t this the aim of all religions?
Religion is a manifestation of Kundalini. As you know, there is a deep impulse in the
human heart which has accompanied man from the earliest days and expresses itself as
a thirst for God or supernatural experience. This impulse is the outcome of the activity
of Kundalini.

Do you say that religion is a natural urge in man for which there is a physiological basis?
Yes. Modern science has not been able to offer any explanation for the existence of the
religious impulse in the human race. Actually, the religious impulse is the evolutionary
urge in man and it is one of the basic urges which unfortunately science has overlooked
so far. The physiological basis of this impulse is Kundalini in the same way as the
reproductive system is the basis for the sexual urge in man.

Does it mean that by evolution mankind will automatically become more and more reli-
gious?
Yes. Religious people are the most evolved of humanity. By this I mean that if evolution
is normal and in the right direction, the truly religious are the most evolved, but not, of
course, the pseudo-religious and the fanatics.

Is there a distinct moment of real awakening?
Yes. In the case of one in whom Kundalini is only stirring, a moment of distinct awak-
ening occurs when, with regulated exercises, he or she succeeds, by stimulating the
conscious center in the brain, to force Kundalini to send up a greater stream of vital
radiation to the head.

Is it a special moment which one can never forget?
It is a marvelous, never-to-be-forgotten experience. The moment human consciousness
expands into a higher consciousness, with the nectar provided by Kundalini, the ego in
man is transfixed with astonishment at the change.

Does one then loose one’s ego?
If one were to loose the ego completely, one could bring no recollection of the higher
consciousness down into ego-bound consciousness of the ordinary man or women.
The ego becomes softened and appears just like a small bubble in an ocean of con-
sciousness.

Is the character then also evolved?
Most certainly. The evolution of man, to be harmonious, includes both intellectual and
moral development.

What happens when Kundalini is aroused and goes from the base of the spine to the
crown of the head?
The awakening of Kundalini is attended with certain very pronounced and unmistakable
symptoms, the first of which is the ascension of a stream of radiant energy from the
base of the spine into the head, inside the spinal column.

The last portion of the spinal canal has no hollow aperture in it. How does the stream of
energy go through it?
The radiant energy is produced in all the region contained in and around the repro-
ductive organs. It moves through the nerves surrounding the last vertebras.

The vital energy goes around the coccyx and then enters the spinal cord?
Yes, you see, all the nerves of the body secrete a very fine, highly volatile substance
called prana. It is not the universal prana but it is its physiological counterpart in the
body. A concentrated form of this prana is present in the reproductive system. When
this is transformed into energy it ascends in streams of light into the brain.

It has been said that the impulse is given from the conscious center in the brain and then
the energy is sent up from the base of the spine.
Every activity in the body is interlinked with the activity of the brain. It is when the
superconscious center in the brain is stimulated that pressure is exerted on Kundalini to
send up the energy to feed the center.

Is the stimulation of the superconscious center in the brain brought about by the purity of
heart and mind or by something physiological?
It is a mistake to differentiate between physiological and mental influences in such a
case. Both are interconnected. The awakening is a process of evolution. When the mind
and body reach a state of perfection, previous to the awakening, a slight effort can stim-
ulate the superconscious center and lead to an awakening. The heart and mind become
purified if the evolutionary processes proceed in a proper way.

What happens when the stream of radiant energy enters the brain?
It enters the upper region of the brain through the spinal canal. The head is filled with it,
and the consciousness of the individual begins to expand in a marvelous manner. It
grows wider and wider and, after a while, the observing ego finds itself floating like a
bubble on a lustrous conscious ocean of vast dimensions.

What is the relation between the awakening and Illumination?

When the awakening is healthy and the radiant stream of energy rises through the cen-
tral canal, the activity of the highest center is intensified and the indwelling soul comes
into contact with its own sphere of existence. When this happens, illumination occurs.

Does that mean when the awakening is healthy, illumination can occur at the very same
moment?
It can happen in special circumstances, but ordinarily the awakening is attended by dis-
turbances of the nervous system, resulting from the passage of a higher form of energy
through the delicate nerves. It takes some time for the brain and the nerves to get
accustomed to this flow of the radiant force. When this adjustment is made, the indi-
vidual lives in a state of illumination.
You said before that when the radiant stream of energy rises through the central canal,
does this mean it can enter the brain by another passage?
It can also rise through the ida or pingala, which means the nerves on either side of the
spinal canal. But in that case, the awakening is not healthy. The energy normally enters
through the central canal, called the sushumna, but it may go into a wrong channel in
spite of the choice of the individual. There are methods to deal with such conditions
provided the person is under the guidance of a competent teacher.

The ideal, then, is to raise it through the central canal?
Not only the ideal, but it is necessary for man’s life and sanity that it rises through the
central canal. If the awakening is slight, and it rises in one or the other channel, it will
cause disturbances of the mind and body and maybe even disease. If the awakening is
powerful, it may cause insanity or even death.

How does the radiant energy rise up through the spine, in a straight line, or a spiral or
zigzag
It rises through a slightly zigzag path. At the outset, the energy rises to varying dis-
tances in the spinal canal and not directly into the brain. Therefore, in the first stages,
one can observe the phenomenon in terms of time. But once it finds its way into the
brain, no perceptible amount of time is taken by the energy for moving from the base of
the spine to the head.
Does this mean that once Kundalini is in the head She does not move any more but is
everywhere?
The force of Kundalini is actually a radiant stream of vital energy which is constantly
moving from the spinal canal into the head. Once the movement is set up it continues
permanently in those cases in which the nervous system has attained a certain degree of
perfection.

[Unseeking Seeker]

Originally Posted by NoOne

I am personally not that interested in the Shiva vs Krishna debate, it's a bit like Christians debating whether to pray to God or Jesus. Same trinity, different form and that applies to both religions.

As a result of this discussion I am re-reading some of Gopi Krishna's works. I realise that I keep harping on about him, but I have yet to find a better source on Kundalini and Enlightenment, so, with apologies, I will continue referring to him and quoting him.

I have found a few quotes in a Q&A format that are pertinent to this discussion

***

Quite informative, thanks for compiling the extracts

***

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by NoOne

I am personally not that interested in the Shiva vs Krishna debate, it's a bit like Christians debating whether to pray to God or Jesus. Same trinity, different form and that applies to both religions.

As a result of this discussion I am re-reading some of Gopi Krishna's works. I realise that I keep harping on about him, but I have yet to find a better source on Kundalini and Enlightenment, so, with apologies, I will continue referring to him and quoting him.

I have found a few quotes in a Q&A format that are pertinent to this discussion

Thank you for all that information as well and even though I am very familiar with Pt Gopi Krishna's works and words myself, having the knowledge and awareness refreshed from time to time is gratefully appreciated.

I am pretty much, nay, totally done with this thread too, as perceived differences between "gods" and "philosophies" just becomes another bane of contention to assert egotistical (and unfounded) hierarchical superiority and this fosters unwanted feelings of anger inside me. Acrimony is my natural, knee jerk reaction to sanctimony.

At the moment, I am just immersing myself in the teachings of the Buddha and I can fully appreciate why it is that most people see Buddhism as being a much better alternative to Hinduism... So they can totally forget about the moon as WELL as the finger which is pointing to it.

For the past day or so, I have just been immersing myself in ancestor worship as well as exploring the more shamanic and animist side of raw Tantra... Which is always my "go to" when I become bogged down in philosophical debate with others who won't even give an inch on their viewpoint, causing the discussion to go round and round in infinite circles like a dog chasing its tail.

Also, threads like this are usually posted by those who already HAVE vested interests, either one way or the other to "bait out" those who have an opposing viewpoint to either attack or convert. We have seen this is the case in regards to the opening poster already, who only has a very limited (and stereotypical) knowledge about Shaivite sects, thus basing his whole argument on THAT alone (as many Vaishnavas tend to do).

Thinking, reasoning, logic etc can only take one SO far... Especially when it isn't being reciprocated and that is usually the cue for me to go off and dance myself into ecstatic trance-bliss or watch videos about epic cat fails or play with computer generated fractal images or just sit and gaze at my lava lamp for hours without thinking at ALL (which is what I have been doing non stop for the past 4 hours).

I also need a sabattical... I may go camping for a while without any modern tech or human connection.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Thank you for all that information as well and even though I am very familiar with Pt Gopi Krishna's works and words myself, having the knowledge and awareness refreshed from time to time is gratefully appreciated.

I am pretty much, nay, totally done with this thread too, as perceived differences between "gods" and "philosophies" just becomes another bane of contention to assert egotistical (and unfounded) hierarchical superiority and this fosters unwanted feelings of anger inside me. Acrimony is my natural, knee jerk reaction to sanctimony.

At the moment, I am just immersing myself in the teachings of the Buddha and I can fully appreciate why it is that most people see Buddhism as being a much better alternative to Hinduism... So they can totally forget about the moon as WELL as the finger which is pointing to it.

For the past day or so, I have just been immersing myself in ancestor worship as well as exploring the more shamanic and animist side of raw Tantra... Which is always my "go to" when I become bogged down in philosophical debate with others who won't even give an inch on their viewpoint, causing the discussion to go round and round in infinite circles like a dog chasing its tail.

Also, threads like this are usually posted by those who already HAVE vested interests, either one way or the other to "bait out" those who have an opposing viewpoint to either attack or convert. We have seen this is the case in regards to the opening poster already, who only has a very limited (and stereotypical) knowledge about Shaivite sects, thus basing his whole argument on THAT alone (as many Vaishnavas tend to do).

Thinking, reasoning, logic etc can only take one SO far... Especially when it isn't being reciprocated and that is usually the cue for me to go off and dance myself into ecstatic trance-bliss or watch videos about epic cat fails or play with computer generated fractal images or just sit and gaze at my lava lamp for hours without thinking at ALL (which is what I have been doing non stop for the past 4 hours).

I also need a sabattical... I may go camping for a while without any modern tech or human connection.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Yeah, that sounds great. I'm also planning to spend a couple of days on a farm, in nature. I live downtown, so it's good to get out of the built environment once in a while. Possibly I will start a new thread on Kundalini, which I have already done on another forum, so I might just copy-paste most of it and add some new stuff.

Currently I'm at the stage described by Gopi Krishna above, my reproductive organs are basically fully adjusted to feeding a constant stream of prana to my brain. I can feel that very consciously and not just on the level of the subtle body, but as an entirely physical process. When I go into healing or channelling mode, the flow intensifies considerably and my entire spine, plus the pineal gland and the top of my head lights up. When I do healing on someone, the energy flows through my hands. But, this isn't just any old energy, it is generated by the Kundalini, therefore it feels hot and intensely pleasurable, wherever it goes in my body.

Since you are looking into Shamanism anyway, it might be worth looking into shamanic journeying as part of that, if you haven't already. Good luck with your Astral Journeys.

[Taking a Break]

Originally Posted by NoOne

Possibly I will start a new thread on Kundalini, which I have already done on another forum, so I might just copy-paste most of it and add some new stuff.

Yess, you have my vote! Start asap please!

[Taking a Break]

When I did mantra meditation on a regular basis, I began to become clairvoyant and information (often unimportant and annoying) came in the form of an idea (as in cartoons) and suspected it was due to Spirits. Or was it my Spirit Guide?

Is clairvoyance the result of kundalini awakening?

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by Taking a Break

When I did mantra meditation on a regular basis, I began to become clairvoyant and information (often unimportant and annoying) came in the form of an idea (as in cartoons) and suspected it was due to lower spirits.

Is clairvoyance the result of kundalini awakening?

It could be a result of that, but not necessarily. Psychic gifts (siddhis) can be a side-effect of Kundalini activation, but they're not the ultimate aim. For instance, the yogic practice of generating excess body heat in a cold environment (this is useful in the Himalayas, as you can imagine) is done by raising the Kundalini only to the lower chakras and not letting it rise any further.

There are several yogic practices that can produce siddhis, without raising the Kundalini. These are generally frowned upon by those seeking true enlightenment and liberation.

Of course psychic abilities can come along naturally as well, from birth, or can arise spontaneously, later in life. Kundalini has only a tentative connection with these abilities, it is about much more than that.