Oneness and Emptiness

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by keepitsimple

Anyone want to discuss oneness and emptiness, and what the relationship is between them .. ?

How do Samadhi and Nirvana relate to oneness and emptiness?

What i want to know is if in mainline buddhism, or in your individual opinion, - oneness and emptiness are the same thing?

A very deep topic.

In Buddhism they are not the same. In Buddhism oneness is not the goal, emptiness is the goal. Emptiness being the infinite potential of all things.

You can think of oneness as being a lower level of realization in Buddhism.

First one realizes emptiness of self, which at this stage one does realize oneness. The next stage is to realize emptiness of Universal Mind which is Ultimate emptiness. This is the realization of a Buddha.

Here a Buddha has perfect clarity, see's others as Buddha's, their true nature and is not touched by issues and fears.

To me and this is my personal view this is much like, first you see a mountain, then no mountain. Why no mountain? Because it is all of the mind, an illusion, energy that one is trapped in and with realization, see's it for what it is.

Other traditions or you could say my view is they are missing the last step. First you see a mountain, then no mountain, then you see the mountain again.

Seeing the mountain again is about differentiation. It is for example, seeing others as Buddha's but also seeing them as they are now. It is about adding that perfect clarity along with being able to differentiate every single being, a cloud, a tree as an aspect of you. Think of it as not a lower realization as described earlier but integrating it all.

Are these things concepts? Yes to those who have not realized them. Just like snow is a concept to many who have only heard of it.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

A very deep topic.

In Buddhism they are not the same. In Buddhism oneness is not the goal, emptiness is the goal. Emptiness being the infinite potential of all things.

You can think of oneness as being a lower level of realization in Buddhism.

First one realizes emptiness of self, which at this stage one does realize oneness. The next stage is to realize emptiness of Universal Mind which is Ultimate emptiness. This is the realization of a Buddha.

Here a Buddha has perfect clarity, see's others as Buddha's, their true nature and is not touched by issues and fears.

To me and this is my personal view this is much like, first you see a mountain, then no mountain. Why no mountain? Because it is all of the mind, an illusion, energy that one is trapped in and with realization, see's it for what it is.

Other traditions or you could say my view is they are missing the last step. First you see a mountain, then no mountain, then you see the mountain again.

Seeing the mountain again is about differentiation. It is for example, seeing others as Buddha's but also seeing them as they are now. It is about adding that perfect clarity along with being able to differentiate every single being, a cloud, a tree as an aspect of you. Think of it as not a lower realization as described earlier but integrating it all.

Are these things concepts? Yes to those who have not realized them. Just like snow is a concept to many who have only heard of it.

Jonesboy,

I enjoyed reading your examples and agree with your "oneness is not the goal, emptiness is the goal. Emptiness being the infinite potential of all things."

For me, emptiness is when pain, worry, stress, etc. all disappear and the "the infinite potential of all things" begins. Once you have been there, you want to return. Your concept of "emptiness being the infinite potential of all things" is an unique expression in of itself.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by keepitsimple

Wow! thanks for the response.

I'd like to pull all those ideas together, and find out how to communicate with modern Buddhists, but i'm not sure if i can.

I also checked Nirvana in the wikipedia and found it defined by what it's not : freedom from suffering, having overcome karmic repetitions. I wonder what concepts Buddha was up against back in those days, maybe he couldn't call it oneness because this automatically implied oneness with the divine. I would really love to find an old Buddhist text which refers to oneness ...

Trying to get Buddhists to agree on a goal is hard work, is pure awareness the goal?

My favorite sutra talks about it.

http://buddhasutra.com/files/lankavatara_sutra.htm

While i like this i don't really get it.

And yes, Yoga and Hinduism talk of Samadhi with other meanings. In the 8th step of the eightfold path the Pali word is sammāsamādhi or right Samadhi. In the Mahasatipatthana, the description of sammāsamādhi is all about different stages of absorption. So shouldnt Samadhi be something to do with absorption?

To be able to think clearly we need clear words, - for clear comprehension and investigation of reality we need clear words.

I would agree as well as a clear understanding of what those words mean.

ok. so concepts are the result of us splitting the world into bits, which we all have different relationships with. So maybe we should be talking about our personal experiences.

Oneness and emptiness come in many different degrees and forms.

Emptiness is something i know as an internal body feeling, as though there is just empty space inside my body. There is no relationship to actual space, i sometimes feel my body is as big as the room - sometimes very small. Anyone else with such experiences?

Very, very cool.

I would not consider this emptiness but what you are doing is feeling energy. You and energy are not separate things. As an interesting exercise try to make your body feel bigger. Not just the room but the house. Feel the energy, reside in that energy as much as possible.

i dont get the vibrant - but it's very alive, and now.

I suspect there are many different forms. And it's worth mentioning that my main experiences come from when i was between 11 and 16 yrs. old, before i read anything about it. It was habitual, at nights before sleep, i would breathe and feel my whole body expanding and contracting – i think it was also connected with a sense of seeing and hearing inside my own body. There was nothing mystical, i was very naive (didn't even realise we had lungs till i was 17 or 18).

This emptiness was more real than anything i was learning in school, or our culture – so when i found taoism and then buddhism i felt the connection, but since then, well i guess it's been a long downward path as i learnt more.

I hope you haven't stopped. A very intuitive means of connecting.

Love – now there's a word i didn't expect in a buddhist forum - i suspect it is usually called compassion – (which means something else these days). Love between 2 people, as in the christian sense, seems never to be mentioned in the texts(?). Also empathy - if the word had existed in Buddhas day – how would he have used it?

It's all about opening the heart. Being able to think of others before self. Of seeing other peoples point of view. To love others as yourself, to treat others as you would be treated is taught in most traditions. Others are truly you and all the emotions, judgments on others are the attachments one holds on to.

Sometimes occasionally, i get a feeling of connectedness, unity for a group of people, but it's only a mental feeling ...

Such a true realization is very rare but people can get a taste for example with group meditations.

The once i experienced oneness was when i felt my skin was the room and everything in it. I was the room and there was no sense of emptiness, it was rather a fullness.

Emptiness/oneness is also described as a fullness.

Both emptiness and oneness in my recent (after childhood) experience, are very connected with letting go and giving selflessly (praying for others).

Yes :) very beautifully said.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Jonesboy,

I enjoyed reading your examples and agree with your "oneness is not the goal, emptiness is the goal. Emptiness being the infinite potential of all things."

For me, emptiness is when pain, worry, stress, etc. all disappear and the "the infinite potential of all things" begins. Once you have been there, you want to return. Your concept of "emptiness being the infinite potential of all things" is an unique expression in of itself.

Thank you BigJohn.

Emptiness being infinite potential, a fullness is more of a Dzogchen teaching.

To really help I would like to bring in a teaching from the Tao Te Ching.

Chapter 28 - The Path of the Immortal

Know the strength of man,
But keep a woman's care!
Be the stream of the universe!
Being the stream of the universe,
Ever true and unswerving,
Become as a little child once more.
Know the white,
But keep the black!
Be an example to the world!
Being an example to the world,
Ever true and unwavering,
Return to the infinite.
Know honor,
Yet keep humility.
Be the valley of the universe!
Being the valley of the universe,
Ever true and resourceful,
Return to the state of the uncarved block.
When the block is carved, it becomes useful.
When the sage uses it, he becomes the ruler.
Thus, "A great tailor cuts little."

Now, what does that all mean. Please forgive my much longer quote but I do hope it helps.

Know the strength of man, But keep a woman's care!

It must be remembered that this is written from the male perspective, so that for a woman you could invert the statements. But, this defines the realization (and noticing) of the male and female polarities with energy. Classically after one has opened and learned to reside beyond the upper dantien (crown). With it one has begun to "know" that they are not simply a male (or female) human body mind.


Be the stream of the universe!

"Be" is the key word here. When one opens there "3rd eye", they start noticing and seeing more astral stuff, potentially even higher beings and other worlds/dimensions. But, with this "seeing" there is still the individual person seeing things that are not a part of them (dualistic viewing). With higher levels of the crown open, it is you connecting into the entire universe and like the divine is streaming into you. This simple statement is telling you that you need to "be" it and expand with it, rather than drop back down into your local body mind and just continue to see more astral stuff.


Being the stream of the universe, Ever true and unswerving, Become as a little child once more.

The shift to being is the creation of the "golden child" or opening of the "light body". But with the shift one needs to let go of mental conceptions. Each conception is an issue or fear that blocks you from further expanding into being the stream of the universe. It is about breaking down the local body mind view of self. Knowing that you are the universe.


Know the white, But keep the black!

These simple words are the key to going on to becoming an immortal. When one begins to "be" the universe, the energy/light flow are overwhelming. One feels them-self to cease to exist as an individual form. Many traditions describe it as ceasing into God (or the divine). It feels so good and overwhelming that many stop here. This statement is telling you that one must begin to differentiate at this new and higher level of being. It is like learning to differentiate the universe while still being all of it. Similar to knowing your hand as an individual component, but keeping the being all of the body aspect.


Be an example to the world! Being an example to the world, Ever true and unwavering, Return to the infinite.

This part is saying that one must work in the world and with others to progress and expand (and not hide on some mountaintop). It is through energetic interactions with others that we notice our deep subconscious issues and fears (beyond normal self stuff) that that continue to keep us from expanding to all (infinite). But, in working with others it is often common to get caught up with their issues and fears as they resonate with our own issues that one has not yet cleared. So one must be "ever true and unwavering" to not get caught up in those issues. And if one continues on with this process the expansion becomes infinite.


Know honor, Yet keep humility. Be the valley of the universe!

These next words are similar to the first on male and female energy separation, but more at the universe level. The two that come from the one are polarities of all creation that lead to the manifestation of the "10,000 things". These two polarities are like infinite transmission and reception. Being the valley of the universe is being the lowest and deepest point of reception with all energy streams flowing through and to you. One must accept all and be humble while still differentiating (and knowing honor). It is effectively saying that one must let go of being a god like being. Keep humble even though you can effect the universe.


Being the valley of the universe, Ever true and resourceful, Return to the state of the uncarved block.

Being the infinite reception/valley for everything and being resourceful (maintaining existence), one clears away all separation with the universe. Effectively becomes deeper and the background for the universe/all. This now "uncarved block" has infinite potential for helping and changing the universe.


When the block is carved, it becomes useful. When the sage uses it, he becomes the ruler.

When one have become the universe itself, some consider the journey complete and reside in that state. But, some retain the fundamental core of wanting to help others, and hence allow the needs and hopes of universe itself to carve the block and define a new form to operate with the universe (time and space). When the sage uses this form/newly carved block, he becomes a great power unto the universe.


Thus, "A great tailor cuts little."

This is both a statement reminding one that the process is about "doing little", but also that one who is a ruler, makes very small cuts in the fabric (of the universe) to make the best clothes (shifts in the universe).

[JustBe]

i dont get the vibrant - but it's very alive, and now.

I suspect there are many different forms. And it's worth mentioning that my main experiences come from when i was between 11 and 16 yrs. old, before i read anything about it. It was habitual, at nights before sleep, i would breathe and feel my whole body expanding and contracting – i think it was also connected with a sense of seeing and hearing inside my own body. There was nothing mystical, i was very naive (didn't even realise we had lungs till i was 17 or 18).

This emptiness was more real than anything i was learning in school, or our culture – so when i found taoism and then buddhism i felt the connection, but


Early experiences are often ‘reminders’ when young to ‘not forget’ ones potential within oneself. You seem to have had, a more noteable direct experience that you wouldn’t forget. Any relationship you found later in other connections, teachings, etc, would simply be a reminder for you to know what you are, how you can be, beyond the worlds concepts and ideas and especially limited ideas. Vibrant might simply relate as ‘clarity’, or when things are more pronounced as ones ‘aliveness’. Descriptive words are our own unique expression of experiences. So anything goes..

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

@ JustBe ... oops! I’m erratic with peeping back at threads I’ve posted on. I assume you refer to the word ‘vibrant’ I employed earlier on?

I’m not a student of the scriptures ... particularly Buddhist ones, so I’ll leave it to jonesboy and Gem and others, who are all competent!

I speak from direct experience, as at coordinate at which I am. Possibly, I resonate more with the Tantra (Kashmir Shaiva) energy path, although I identify easily with the voidness spoken of in Buddhism. In fact, it is dealt with at length in Tantra as well. I wonder ... aren’t all paths the same ... I mean, we may start off at different points of reference but the roots get to the one singular truth.

Sorry for rambling! About vibrancy ... it is, what I may portray as a magnetic bliss pulse in permanence throbbing within* (* in the Sushumna), irrespective of the external. Day & night. Uninterrupted. Possibly another SF member ‘running’ speaks of this. As you know, it is difficult to delineate the actuality. For example, you see the light within. How may you ‘bequeath’ this divine gift to another?

***

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

***

@ JustBe ... oops! I’m erratic with peeping back at threads I’ve posted on. I assume you refer to the word ‘vibrant’ I employed earlier on?

I’m not a student of the scriptures ... particularly Buddhist ones, so I’ll leave it to jonesboy and Gem and others, who are all competent!

I speak from direct experience, as at coordinate at which I am. Possibly, I resonate more with the Tantra (Kashmir Shaiva) energy path, although I identify easily with the voidness spoken of in Buddhism. In fact, it is dealt with at length in Tantra as well. I wonder ... aren’t all paths the same ... I mean, we may start off at different points of reference but the roots get to the one singular truth.

Sorry for rambling! About vibrancy ... it is, what I may portray as a magnetic bliss pulse in permanence throbbing within* (* in the Sushumna), irrespective of the external. Day & night. Uninterrupted. Possibly another SF member ‘running’ speaks of this. As you know, it is difficult to delineate the actuality. For example, you see the light within. How may you ‘bequeath’ this divine gift to another?

***

I love Kashmir Shaivism. Always nice to see another fan of such a great tradition.

Depending on the meaning of void there is difference between Buddhism and KS. In early Buddhist sutra teachings void means silence, which has the same meaning as KS. In later teachings void means emptiness. Emptiness and Sunyata in KS doesn't mean the same thing. There is no emptiness in KS as it means in Buddhism.

In KS the ultimate goal is to be One like Siva. One is never all that Siva is but One like Siva. Siva could be thought of as Universal Mind.

In Buddhism ultimate emptiness is seeing the emptiness of Universal Mind. Or another way of saying it is we are all Siva, there are countless Siva's.

As far as sharing the light, KS is much more advanced in my view than Buddhism. In Buddhism one can't share the light but in KS, a being that has truly realized the light can and by doing so help others.

Examples of directly sharing ones being can be found in the Rites of Adolation and Direct Introduction.

Here is an example of direct introduction from The Doctrine of Vibration

Significantly, the last Stanza of the second

section ends with the declaration that 'this is the initiation that bestows

Siva's true nature'. In other words, this realisation, attained through the

expanding consciousness of contemplation with the eyes open, initiates the

yogi into the liberated state, which is identification with Siva whose body

is the universe.



In order to attain this expanded state of liberated consciousness, the

yogi must find a spiritual guide because the Master (guru) is the means to

realisation.23 The Master is for his disciple Siva Himself for it is he who

through his initiation, teaching and grace, reveals the secret power of

spiritual discipline. Instructing in the purport of scripture he does more

than simply explain its meaning: he transmits the realisation it can bestow.

The Master is at one with Siva's divine power through which he enlightens

his disciple. It is this power that matters and makes the Master a true

spiritual guide, just as it was this same power that led the disciple to him

in his quest for the path that leads to the tranquility that can only be found

'in the abode beyond mind'. The Master is the ferry that transports the

disciple over the ocean of thoughts-if, that is, the disciple is ready. The

disciple must be 'awake' (prabuddha), attending carefully to the pulse of

consciousness. This alert state of wakefulness is at once the keen sensitivity

of insight as well as the receptivity of one who has no other goal to pursue

except enlightenment.



.....



When such a disciple sits before his Master, all he has to do is to gaze

at him and be aware of his elevated state to feel the fragrance (vdsand) of

the Master's transcendental consciousness extending spontaneously

within him. Abhinava explains:



So gracious is he that, by transferring his own nature to those whose

consciousness is pure, they became one with him at his [mere] sight.



If the disciple does not possess the strength of awareness to allow the

Master to infuse this consciousness into him directly in this way while his

eyes are open, he is instructed to close them. The Master then bestows

upon him a vision of former perfected yogis (siddha) while the disciple is

in a state of contemplation with his eyes closed (nimilanasamddhi).

Through the vision of these perfected yogis (siddhadarSana)94 he

recognises their level of consciousness and so experiences it within himself.

The disciple's consciousness thus suddenly expands within him like the

violent and rapid spread of poison through the body (bhujarigagaralavat).

He thus becomes one with his Master in the unifying bliss of universal

consciousness and so, whether his eyes are open or closed, continues to

enjoy the same state constantly.

From personal experience, what is being described is very much possible.

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

@ jones boy ... essentially Shaktipat then, if it is so meant to happen. It is not always optimal in my view, for if the receptor is not pure, the transmission may not be spherically complete, resulting in an ‘imbalance’.

It is the disciple who has to be ready. What ‘ready’ means is an involved topic. Let’s just say, vaporising lower mind.

***

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

***

@ jones boy ... essentially Shaktipat then, if it is so meant to happen. It is not always optimal in my view, for if the receptor is not pure, the transmission may not be spherically complete, resulting in an ‘imbalance’.

It is the disciple who has to be ready. What ‘ready’ means is an involved topic. Let’s just say, vaporising lower mind.

***

Shaktipat is something much different.

Shaktipat is a sending of energy. There is a you and there is a me. I would send energy to you. Shaktipat is possible once someone has opened up to the 5th chakra.

What is being described above is a sharing of Oneness. There cannot be a you and me that is separate. The master, teacher, friend that has realized oneness to such a degree knows everyone is within them. Can feel them and share himself with them.

It is that instantly being taken deeper into being that allows for issues and fears to drop.

As far as issues being sent. It is only shared issues that would get hit. If you don’t have the same issues they just flow through. Shaktipat is a sending and it is much more likely issues can get hit. That one may not be able to deal with all the energy and issues could be hit for days.

The KS method provides space which allows for one not to get caught up and to drop issues. Often times with such a sharing one can safely bring up issues and fears to help let them go. One is able to bring it up without getting caught up in it.

[keepitsimple]

Thanks again for all the ideas, especially then to Jonesboy, and it'll take a few days (at least) to read the Lankavatara Sutra - but i already notice many references to oneness - so thanks for all the help and i'll be back after a few more meditations. And in the meantime please just talk among yourselves :-)