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13-08-2021, 07:44 PM
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Master
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Golden Bay, New Zealand
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS80
What did Krishnamurti say about practice in the video? Practicing strengthens or emphasizes "the me" (aka the ego). Practicing is "the me" or ego doing-doing means judging and evaluating etc etc , "the me" or ego is the one that practices, while choiceless awareness or mindfulness or whatever you want to call it is non-doing.
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Personally I find Krishnamurti somewhat dry and uninspiring. His difficulty was that he spoke from his own state of realisation (whatever that might have been) and taught that this state of realisation was possible for all without providing any means for others to attain it. He denied gurus, paths and practices, leaving his followers with nothing but words. Hence in Krishnamurti's later years he became very frustrated that no-one seemed to have realised the truth which he spoke about.
Krishnamurti falls into the trap of defining practice in a particular way ( practice strengthens or emphasises the ego) so he can then dismiss the value of practice. And after all, avoiding practice is itself a practice which can be equally ego-driven.
Practice may begin as an ego activity for most of us but over time it can develop into a way of letting go of ego. We push doing to the point of surrender to non-doing.
Peace
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13-08-2021, 08:07 PM
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Deactivated Account
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Somewhere in the Pure Land
Posts: 585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
Practice may begin as an ego activity for most of us but over time it can develop into a way of letting go of ego. We push doing to the the point of surrender to non-doing. Peace
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Yes, thank you. Hence the Pure Land writer Taitetsu Unno, that it is a necessary step on the path when "self power" (Japanese jirikii) is seen to be the working of Other Power (Japanese tariki)
And the observation of many of the paradox, that there is nothing to do and yet we cannot do nothing.
The play of jiriki and tariki is much to the forefront of Pure Land thought.
Here is the Pure Land myokonin Saichi when asked the question:-
O Saichi! Will you tell us of tariki?
Yes, but there is neither jiriki nor tariki.
What is, is the Graceful Acceptance only.
And Thomas Merton, in dialogue with D. T. Suzuki:-
In the purity of original innocence, all is done in us but without us. But before we reach that level, we must also learn to work on the other level of “knowledge”—scientia— where grace works in us but “not without us”
__________________
When a scholar is born they forget the nembutsu
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13-08-2021, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
He denied gurus, paths and practices, leaving his followers with nothing but words.
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It's like being told you're only seeing the trees and not the forest and upon asking how to see the forest you're told to see the forest. Just not helpful in the least. As I said, very neo-Advaitan.
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13-08-2021, 10:09 PM
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Master
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
Draw a circle...
.../Brahman.
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Thanks for this response and the previous also.
So the consciousness or non-duality as you say is the awareness that realises that the reality it's aware of, is itself. Or its own creation. Or made out of itself. Or a perspective that it has of itself? Like that?
I can't wrap my head around it. Because the center of the overlap, still feels like the opposite of the "opposite ends that don't overlap." Even tho I understand it is a trinity, it feels like the duality is more at the base of that trinity. And that the trinity is based on the duality. Even tho some say, that the trinity was already there also before the duality, or that it's not even linear, but simultaneous. That the dream already existed within the consciousness, before it started to go there and experience it.
I always wonder why the core awareness seems so infinitely capable of traversing infinite dreams so fluidly. And why it chooses to dream of its own infinite at all, in the first place. Perhaps because the dreams already exist, even when the core awareness/being is not dreaming of anything and just being. Like it is inevitable that it will experience it, because it already is it.
And thus as I am dreaming, this core being that is not dreaming simultaneously also exists. That it's just a shift of perspective of the infinite being that I am.
Yet my ability to navigate seems relative. Because sometimes it feels like I am choosing the reality, and sometimes it feels like I have chosen a reality where I am not choosing my reality. And even tho that is temporary, there are infinite versions of that temporary experience that can be had in infinite different ways.
Then I wonder who am I? If I contain both the ability to choose my reality, and the inability to choose my own reality, simultaneously... I seem to always be beyond any definition. On infinite levels of my infinite being. Like I am infinite. There is no limitation. And so everything that I experience will always be an illusion, because it will always be a different dream/perspective. But I can never know everything simultaneously. And yet, I am all of it, simultaneously. All of the time. And then I wonder, why I choose to experience it? And there is no answer. "Just because I can." perhaps. Curiosity, exploration, fun, experience?
It makes absolutely no sense to me. All I know is that if I meditate, I enjoy reality more. Even tho I don't understand how its created more or less after I meditate. I just feel better. I enjoy everything more easily. That's all I know.
Even tho I don't understand how on earth everything is possible.
And when I let go of trying to understand in a reality where I am experiencing not being able to understand, I experience realities where I enjoy understanding reality more fully. Like that reality already existed, I just needed to let go of everything to allow my consciousness to naturally dream more about that reality. And since they cannot co-exist side by side, then that must mean that there literally exists nothing outside of my own reality/dream. That I am literally the only one who exists. And I am always creating every single thing that exists all around me as my own dream.
Well, I don't know its just ideas. I guess I'm still trying to understand even tho I should just let it go. Might aswell just say that all is one and one is all. And "everything affects everything" so its all a reflection of my own being, always. So that I can just trust that it's gonna be alright.
__________________
Sharing perspective.
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13-08-2021, 11:48 PM
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Master
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 2,301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
His difficulty was that he spoke from his own state of realisation (whatever that might have been) and taught that this state of realisation was possible for all without providing any means for others to attain it. He denied gurus, paths and practices, leaving his followers with nothing but words.
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Krishnamurti provides a clear way to attain a quiet/still mind. People do not want to observe, see and listen to the way he provides, because people instead want to observe, see and listen to what they want for imaginary illusionary mental comfort, and to escape and negate the what is that is inside and outside of themselves. Ignorance is not bliss, or is it?
__________________
"Cosmos is perfect order, the sum total of everything"
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14-08-2021, 09:35 AM
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Southwest, USA
Posts: 24,946
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We got a bit off track if you notice some posts gone.
__________________
.*I'll text in Navy Blue when I'm speaking as a Mod. :)
Prepare yourself for the coming astral journey of death by daily riding in the balloon of God-perception.
Through delusion you are perceiving yourself as a bundle of flesh and bones, which at best is a nest of troubles.
Meditate unceasingly, that you may quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence, free from every form of misery. ~Paramahansa's Guru's Guru.
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14-08-2021, 12:31 PM
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Knower
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: England.
Posts: 154
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@MikeS80 I find J Krishnamurti useful as a way of occasionally spring cleaning my mind, when I too clogged up with beliefs and spiritual systems. Like the sorbet course in a meal to clear the palate. People love their levels of attainment, plotting their path ahead of them rather than simply seeing 'what is'. However I can only take him in moderation, I lack the self-discipline to see it through and need the routine of an external spiritual practice otherwise I just end up backsliding and nonduality reverts to being a theory rather than a seeing.
Last edited by Miss Hepburn : 14-08-2021 at 12:51 PM.
Reason: Enlarged print again
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14-08-2021, 03:35 PM
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Master
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 2,301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
It's like being told you're only seeing the trees and not the forest and upon asking how to see the forest you're told to see the forest. Just not helpful in the least. As I said, very neo-Advaitan.
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All a person can really do is show another person the forest, the person whom shows the other person the forest can not force the other person to see or pay attention to the forest for what it is, it is up to this person to either choose to see the forest as a whole for what it is or not.
In order to see or to be conscious of the forest and of your mind as a whole for yourself for what it is, you need a mind that pays attention to the forest and to your mind. Paying attention to the forest and to your mind requires no practice, effort or force, whereas, concentration does require practice, effort and force. This is consciousness, oneness, wholeness and non-duality, and this is the least path of resistence and is our true nature, it does not matter if it is neo-Advaitan or not to your 'the me'.
It is more about J. Krishnamurti's message than it is about the human being J. Krishnamurti.
It is not that practices, traditions, concepts, constructs and etc are bad or negative on thier own, however they become a bad or negative thing when people become attached to them. People will defend their attachments to the death, as this forum clearly shows. Attachments stops one's learning.
__________________
"Cosmos is perfect order, the sum total of everything"
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14-08-2021, 06:34 PM
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Master
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 2,301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowyowl
@MikeS80 I find J Krishnamurti useful as a way of occasionally spring cleaning my mind, when I too clogged up with beliefs and spiritual systems.
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It is what it is.
__________________
"Cosmos is perfect order, the sum total of everything"
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15-08-2021, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
So the consciousness or non-duality as you say is the awareness that realises that the reality it's aware of, is itself. Or its own creation. Or made out of itself. Or a perspective that it has of itself? Like that?
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You're making things more complicated than they are, it's really very simple. There is no Duality to begin with, there are actually three things happening - which is why it's called Triplex Unity. There is 'this' and 'that' - Duality - and there is 'both', then there is what we become conscious of. Nothing is opposite and everything is in a relationship - and that's the key to understanding. There is no ineffable without the effable, no good without bad, no Spiritual without the mundane.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
And thus as I am dreaming, this core being that is not dreaming simultaneously also exists. That it's just a shift of perspective of the infinite being that I am.
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The dreamer is the dream thinking it is the dreamer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
Then I wonder who am I?
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That's where the fun really begins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
If I contain both the ability to choose my reality,
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The conscious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
and the inability to choose my own reality, simultaneously...
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The unconscious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
I seem to always be beyond any definition.
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Yes, you are. Triplex Unity, the resolution of the paradoxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
On infinite levels of my infinite being. Like I am infinite. There is no limitation.
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Fanfare, tickertape, dancing girls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
And so everything that I experience will always be an illusion, because it will always be a different dream/perspective.
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If you want a Spiritual slant then look up Ahamkara. Everything you experience is perceptual reality and therefore created/not real.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
But I can never know everything simultaneously. And yet, I am all of it, simultaneously. All of the time. And then I wonder, why I choose to experience it? And there is no answer. "Just because I can." perhaps. Curiosity, exploration, fun, experience?
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Your answers are your own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
It makes absolutely no sense to me. All I know is that if I meditate, I enjoy reality more. Even tho I don't understand how its created more or less after I meditate. I just feel better. I enjoy everything more easily. That's all I know.
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When we lose our minds we come to our senses."
Alan Watts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
And when I let go of trying to understand in a reality where I am experiencing not being able to understand, I experience realities where I enjoy understanding reality more fully. Like that reality already existed, I just needed to let go of everything to allow my consciousness to naturally dream more about that reality. And since they cannot co-exist side by side, then that must mean that there literally exists nothing outside of my own reality/dream. That I am literally the only one who exists. And I am always creating every single thing that exists all around me as my own dream.
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Do yourself a favour and forget all this 'dreamer and the dream' stuff because it really doesn't help, and it's ego/differentiated consciousness. In this case, the dreamer and the dream are one and the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
Well, I don't know its just ideas. I guess I'm still trying to understand even tho I should just let it go. Might aswell just say that all is one and one is all. And "everything affects everything" so its all a reflection of my own being, always. So that I can just trust that it's gonna be alright.
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Just become conscious of it, don't try to understand it.
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