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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > North American Indigenous Spirituality > Faiths of Indigenous Peoples

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  #131  
Old 23-04-2024, 01:51 AM
sentient sentient is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eezi-ulgen
sentient
That's some real good stuff on the dog and the swan...
In the “Path of Souls: The Native American Death Journey”, the Mississippian Mound Builders had the Spider as well:
1. From a mound, Missouri.
2. From a stone-grave, Illinois.
3. From a mound, Illinois.
4. From a mound, Tennessee.

(The top one looks a bit like the “Central Sun”).
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4256.../images/61.jpg

Quite similar to the Udmurt/Komi belief, where the Golden Spider Thread can - like balancing on a tightrope - lead you past the Dark Rift, the Dark River into the Light, into the “Central Sun” (of ‘Enlightment’), but get spooked & all tangled up, hesitate, lose your balance or walk back and the Spider net will get you. Game over, reincarnate and try again …

So, the Spider is both the adversary and/or the ‘liberator’, depending ….

The name for the ‘ancestor place/shelf’ for my ½ Forest Saami ½ ‘Karelian’ (but from Komi/Veps ancestry as well) … gran was an Udmurt word. So, the ‘song’ within her, which identified her by her ancestral beliefs was the ‘Permian’ “Spider Mother”.

P.S.
Found a shortened version of the “Path of Souls: The Native American Death Journey”
Spider from 14:30 to 15:00
…. But here the Spider is placed at the Orion (hand), the first part of the sky journey:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c5p...annel=atagreg1

Last edited by sentient : 23-04-2024 at 02:53 AM.
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  #132  
Old 23-04-2024, 07:04 PM
eezi-ulgen eezi-ulgen is offline
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sentient

Okay,so here is an example of someone sharing their wisdom on how to do shamanic journey..

Shamanic journeying, I’ve learned, is simple. My steps are;
1. Establish the protected time and place
2. Set my intention
3. Open the space : I use something as simple as lighting a candle.
4. Set the boundaries of the space, inviting in the helpful energies ( whoever you work with; guides, deities, ancestors, spirits etc) and equally important also banish anything with negative intent.
5. Use my imagination to travel ( I usually find myself walking through a wood, getting to a shore and getting in a boat. I hold my intention/question in my mind but aim to maintain a neutral observing approach, I don’t “force” anything. Within the journey I usually have an offering in my pocket so I give that out when the time feels right.
6. Notice and interact with whoever turns up. Thank them.
7. Return to the place I started. Give thanks again and close the space
8. Write down all I can recall even if it doesn’t make sense entirely.


I don't like being negative but I sure hope this is not what my ancestors were doing...
This seems to be imagination work, which does have value but it is hard to understand
what people are talking about sometimes...Or should I say at what level they are talking from...
I understood shamans to work with actual Spirits and not just imagination...
I thought Spirit would actually posses the shaman to do the shaman work through various degrees of trance...
Alright I'll let this one go since I realize I am seeing things on the interwebs and probably not anything close to real traditional shamanism
and if I am to understand shamanism to any real degree I will have to meet one in person and go from there...

Oh, plus I do realize everyone is keen on using the word shaman for all kinds of things nowadays...
Another thing which I don't want to be missed is that, of course things can come through, but my imagination
can and will cook up all kinds of things that may not really be beneficial and may even be ego driven or subconscious garble...

...Peace...
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  #133  
Old Yesterday, 01:09 PM
eezi-ulgen eezi-ulgen is offline
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#132 continued...

I would contend there is something more than imagination going on here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JJw5bTfUL8&t=59s

More than imagination or does it start with imagination??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwe0yuDRh1U

I think the claims by shamans is that through the regalia and ritual objects and offerings and drum/music and trance the ancestral Spirits and natural Spirits
come into the shaman and speak through the shaman...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5NjH4xn03E

I think it is much more than clear your space set your intentions, light a candle and imagine...
These are practices that helped people to survive, these where and are Life and death...
Where to go, where are the game,how to heal, how to travel and survive those kinds of big questions I assume...

Alright I think I am done and I'll drop it...I'm way off the topic of this post...
I just had to say that there is a lot of people making money off what people today call shamanism...

...Peace...
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  #134  
Old Today, 12:49 AM
sentient sentient is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eezi-ulgen
shamanic journey...
I don't like being negative but I sure hope this is not what my ancestors were doing...
Of course, it is not the real deal – it is only ‘becoming a shaman’ in the New Age imagination.
It is good to learn the workings of one’s mind and the subconscious, but here if ever - sober and critical thinking/awareness is needed as it doesn’t serve anybody’s soul to go into fantasylands.

I do not believe in the “Path of the Souls” either, not in a literal sense. They are all myths, but since there are no words to describe awareness shifts into different, non-material dimensions, those descriptions are still useful as a cognitive aid or map and once one has had the experience, an NDE or a ‘shamanic death experience’ – one will understand why things were described in that way.

Oh, found another – a pdf link about the “Dogs”.
‘The Black Dog at the River of Tears’: Some Amerindian Representations of the Passage to the Land of the Dead and their Eurasian Roots”
https://anthropologie.kunstkamera.ru...2_berezkin.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by eezi-ulgen
I understood shamans to work with actual Spirits and not just imagination...
I thought Spirit would actually posses the shaman to do the shaman work through various degrees of trance...
Mongolian shamans do seem to work with actual spirits of the departed – and sure, they can see what is wrong with a person and see into their future, but doesn’t the “Spiritualist Church” do a similar thing – teach people how to become mediums?

The actual, most basic, fundamental, literal truth shamanic worldview teaches one from an early childhood, is that everything is energy (vibration) - one learns to ‘listen’ and to discern within the emptiness - the silence and stillness of one’s being.
Discerning from where the energy is coming from, in mythological language, is best described as the Upper, Middle and Lower worlds … Then tuning into that wavelength, visions, trance may ensue ….
Etc. etc. etc.

A favorite picture by an Udmurtian (?) artist:
https://i.ibb.co/3Y60QTV/Uralic.jpg
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  #135  
Old Today, 02:13 AM
sentient sentient is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eezi-ulgen
I think the claims by shamans is that through the regalia and ritual objects and offerings and drum/music and trance the ancestral Spirits and natural Spirits come into the shaman and speak through the shaman...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5NjH4xn03E
Well, first one creates a sense of “Sacred Space”.
Then again, for us the "Eternal-Primordial-All-Pervasive-All-Accommodating-Unconditional-Space” was/is considered as Sacred. It is just, that through ‘ceremony’ a person is taught/shown how to attune to Space as such (with a Sacred Centre, I may add).

Imo. all that regalia and ritual objects etc. are teaching tools also, plus they show the animal-spirit-helpers the shaman has.
Our shamans did not have such elaborate costumes, although they had special hats and belts.
Protection was gained by tuning into one’s link with Spirit (I don’t mean the spirits of the dead here) ….

But all that pattern of learning accompanied by the imagery made deep impressions into the collective and personal subconscious …
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