The Eightfold Path - The Fourth Noble Truth

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by sky

I think The Buddha's referring to that 'Monkey Mind'

That reminds me of this zen story.

Once some zen monks were meditating in the temple when a monkey came in through an open window and became screeching loudly and running around throwing pillows and breaking things. The master seeing the monks becoming upset said to them, "Remove the monkey!" So the monks got up and chased the monkey but they could not catch it as the monkey was too fast. The monks became more and more upset and agitated and some began yelling and cursing at the monkey. "Master help us!" some monks yelled. The Master noticed some bananas on the offering table and threw them out the window and the monkey followed. The master then closed the window. "Understand the monkey, never fight with it," the Master said smiling.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Gem

I find that when I go to a place that is protected or removed from the chaos in the world,

I was thinking that does not have to be a physical place. One can go there anywhere at anytime. But then interestingly, one can also go into the chaos of the world anywhere at anytime as well. One can be alone in a quiet space and be in the chaos and one can be in a crowd of yelling angry people and not be in that chaos. Is inner peace dependent on outward circumstances?

I think inner peace can be dependent on outer circumstances, unless one is also not attached to an idea of inner peace.

[sky]

Inner peace comes from within and is not dependent on circumstances nor external situations. Some look for it in secluded places away from noise and the chaos of normal life. It's the same with Meditating which can be practised anywhere at any time, some need peace and quiet or cushions and complete silence but there not a necessity but tools to be used for times when you personally feel you need some extra help.....
Inner peace is a state of mind, wherever you take your mind you can be at peace....

[Gem]

I think it's good to remember that the ideal captured in sayings that sound like they should be wise don't really consider things as they are. Not that they are false; just one dimensional, and although they appear to be deep, they more are like the incense smoke of spiritual narrative.

If you see me sitting there on a retreat you'd naturally assume I'm very peaceful because I'm not moving around or expressing anything, but it's not always the case. Sometimes there's a huge storm blowing inside, and even though nothing is happening and everything is quiet, all the angst and frustrations are still happening just as they do in outside life. The only difference is I'm not distracted from it and I don't have to cover it up to function normally and I have no real, material need for repression or expression.

That's something to do with a myth that emotions have to expressed to be resolved, but expression is a lot like repression. I say 'need' because we repressed emotion in our lives because we had to for good reason, and if the conditions under which repression is necessary remain, then the necessity is still there.

The conditions have to be 'right' for things to unwind. The environment needs to be protected and safe. Without that refuge, it's unlikely that the purification can advance, and more likely to do more harm than good. If conditions are unsafe, people are better off repressed, which is why they did so in the first place.

If you have a place of refuge, which is protected and safe, then you can let things unwind. However, letting it happen makes people highly sensitive and vulnerable. It's delicate, and the 'outside world' is erratic and brutal. There's ways of opening the wound to let the gunk out and ensuring it heals over properly. You can't do the operation in a grubby place or leave the wound open where worse infections can get in. It takes much more care.

It seem to me, at my school, the air is charged up, and it feels peaceful on the face of it, but if you stay there a while you start to notice that it's intense, and it starts to feel relentless. Then you need to take a break in the outside world for a bit of relief. Yep, it's weird that the brutal chaos outside is a comparative respite...

[Still_Waters]

QuotE 480 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by sky

Most Pali Suttas start with ' Thus have I heard ' rather than ' This is the word of the lord' that's enough for me

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Gem

Then you need to take a break in the outside world for a bit of relief. Yep, it's weird that the brutal chaos outside is a comparative respite...

I think most "spiritual communities" are actually very heavy when to tap into the collective unconscious of the people there. You have these heavy cultural norms that fit like a straight jacket. Group think.

I think if you break free of your own conditioning you are less willing or able to take on the conditioning of some group. But then groups speak to basic human needs and desires and wants to "belong" so the good feels from that suck people in to some very dark earth bound energies.

We don't perceive what is, we perceive what we think it is. And that tends to be somebody else's narratives that are false and incomplete. Especially in authority based groups. The leaders tell you what things are and you accept their narratives.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Maisy

I think most "spiritual communities". Group think. accept their narratives.

Yes. That's part of it, too.

[Joe Mc]

It would be wise also to consider that groups or sanghas or congregations
have fringe benefits on this wonderful travel from earth to heaven from Delusion to Nirvana.
The old saying says, " there is safety in numbers". And that is the principle which is probably most valuable
within any congregation. When I first came across meditation it seemed that every book always had a
warning about practicing alone with an emphasis on finding a teacher. That somehow one could become deluded very easily practicing
under one's own directions and perhaps go insane. So the safest antidote to that is to travel with others and I totally get that function
and benefit of a Group. I myself am not affiliated deeply to any group in particular.

************************************************** **********

[Maisy]

I think any group could be helpful or not helpful. It depends on who is in the group and what they say and do to you. How they affect you as we can all affect each other in many ways. The path to me is completely about understanding oneself and self awareness, both things are not dependent on any inner or outer circumstance. A person can have an insight into their nature while bowling with friends at a disco night at a bowling alley, while playing football, or while sitting in zazen in a strict zen community.

Because an insight can happen anywhere, at anytime, one could say spiritual groups are not important at all. But then because some spiritual groups attract persons or leaders who have had a lot of insights, they may be talking about or teaching such things so point others to focus on the same subjects which can help insights happen. But then the opposite can happen as well with spiritual groups or authorities not teaching or pointing to helpful ideas or activities.

Now days we have books and videos online, by many gifted insightful teachers, so I think groups are not very important now days. But then in communities you may meet insightful people who don't write books and don't make videos. Also your father or mother or sibling or friend from work or a grandparent could be insightful. They could also be the opposite of helpful. Some writings of ancient or modern philosophers can be helpful or lead to self insights or not.

I think religions are important as some of their subject matter is about self awareness and insights and they are like constant holders of this subject matter and truths. But then they can be focused on non-sense as well. Really everything is a "spiritual community" if we are learning about ourselves in them. So this includes our families, our co-workers at work, the people we encounter everyday. My friend is a school teacher and her teachers aide recently died. She spent 40 hours a week with her aide for 30 years. They had a very close bond and their classroom was a spiritual community of human beings. (Everyone is spirit in human form so every group is a spiritual community.)

Some people's work environment is the only "spiritual community" they will ever have in this life. That's where they interact with others and learn about themselves and each other. Where they foster love or hate. Within whatever group of people we find ourselves in in life.

[sky]

Renouncing violence
for all living beings,
harming not even a one,
you would not wish for offspring,
so how a companion?
Wander alone
like a rhinoceros.

For a sociable person
there are allurements;
on the heels of allurement, this pain.
Seeing allurement's drawback,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros. Etc.......

http://www.buddhasutra.com/files/khaggavisana_sutta.htm