The Eightfold Path - The Fourth Noble Truth

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Gem

I wouldn't put 'talk'/'quote' in the same category. To talk about something you have to understand enough to explain something, elaborate, think it through and articulate. To quote something you just cut and paste . Very different things.

Good point though a lot of people can talk indefinitely with very little understanding.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Good point though a lot of people can talk indefinitely with very little understanding.

Just going to plug along here and touch on the points made.

Refuge's not really about friends. I have created refuge in 2 different formal contexts: 1) in the ashram setting and; 2) In community service work. The latter provided safe conditions and the cultivation of trust, but definitely not friendship. The former applied to people I didn't even know, but they came to retreat and I had to look after them. In the buddhist sangha there are teachers, some I don't even particularly like, and none of them are my friend. What I'm saying here is so obvious anyway. or any practical purpose, refuge is about how it requires you to practice all the other things like respect, good-will and morality, generosity, metta and all that stuff - because that's what it takes to create a 'safe space'.

The spiritual context is a lot like the community service context in that it's mostly about truthfulness and trust, purification and overcoming sorrow, as per the stated purpose of meditation in Buddhism. It's not easy to do and it takes some special skill including a good sense of self-awareness - as we not only tend to project our own impressions and illusions upon other folk, but become highly reactive to them, and judgmental.

Trust is delicate. I imagine it like a spider web. If you pull out just a tiny strand it creates a gaping hole. The web has to be constantly tended and repaired. You put a foot wrong and trust is compromised. Bitterness and animosity starts creeping in, and if that is not tended to, the sangha will degenerate quickly and become impure and corrupt; then sangha is no longer safe refuge.

Maisy is right. Not abstract notions, but the real-lived experience. More than just what is being experienced, but the whole presence of conscious experience. I always tell the story of how the ego was revealed to me and I could clearly differentiate between the one who pretended to be me (but is not), and the one aware, which is...

I'm not going to say there is no method, because this occurred to me through methodical practice, but I will say that practice quite specifically involves not giving the ego what it needs to be 'me' - i.e. 'craving'.

Then... 'craving' is a complex little beast as well - it's all nuanced because we are really complex living things, so you really have to explore 'the reality' deeply, and instead of craving some sorts of experiences, just be really ardent for the truth. That was inspired by what Maisy said, so blame her .

[sky]

We take refuge in the Buddha and the Dharma, but the Sangha is also our refuge.
I personally don't need any Dharma Teachings to reiterate this as I've experienced it in real life. Dharma is the Buddha's Teachings/Scriptures and as this is the Buddhism Section I'll Copy & Paste a Teaching regarding friends/friendship and it's importance..... Take from it what helps you personally and leave the rest behind .

"On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling among the Sakyans where there was a town of the Sakyans [the Buddha’s tribe] named Nagaraka [“Little Town”]. Then the Venerable Ānanda approached the Blessed One. Having approached, he paid homage to the Blessed One, sat down to one side, and said to him:

“Venerable sir, this is half of the holy life, that is, good friendship, good companionship, good comradeship.”

“Not so, Ānanda! Not so, Ānanda! This is the entire holy life, Ānanda, that is, good friendship, good companionship, good comradeship. When a bhikkhu [monk] has a good friend, a good companion, a good comrade, it is to be expected that he will develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold Path."

Upaḍḍhasutta (SN 45.2.

[Maisy]

I don't take refuge in anything because I try to be without an "I." I exist and live fully and have experience and perception and stuff but I exist as what? I try to exist in a free and liberated condition. Not only liberated externally but internally as well. Liberated from my own ideas. I say "my" but really they are not my ideas, they are just ideas from my brain and sub-conscious and they come and go as they do but I don't have to give them any energy or attention.

These ideas about "doing." Practicing, taking refuge, meditating, for me it is not about doing. It's about being. And we don't have to do anything to just be. It is our natural condition. We are perfect as we are. Everything is perfect as it is.

There is an "I" in the sense I know fully myself to be here now and fully aware and present. But an "I" that is judging what or where I am, judging what is, that "I" does not have to be experienced.

I don't think selfless means without a self. I think it means being empty, which increases perception and awareness and peace. It is the beginning and end of practice. Without an idea, what am I? I think I am more me as I was never an idea and never had to perceive or experience or act based on some idea from my mind.

If one wanted to for some reason, everything I said above could be summed up as taking refuge. In early Buddhist scriptures, taking refuge is an expression of determination to follow the Buddha's path. Buddha's path was liberation. So in taking refuge, I stop all doing. I live and experience now as it is, liberated and free of influence or interference from ideas.

Originally Posted by Maisy

"I am" the true self.

But then we mistakenly assume we are things we are not. Like mind or thought or ego. So I think that is what living in delusion means.

Living in delusion seems expected from society, learning a language to go along to get along in society is very perplexing to me.
I was under the impression that
the true self also had mind but of a more universal nature.
I know so little and the more I learn the less understanding I seem to have.
So using language to communicate and attempting to parse out words to convey exactly what I want to communicate leaves me wanting to withdraw more and more into nature.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Maisy

we don't have to do anything to just be. judging what i So in taking refuge, I stop all doing. I live and experience now as it is

Yea, I'm the same as meditation for me stop-doing (which is really stop reacting). I see what you mean, and I have the same impression but from a different angle, like 'Just watch and let nature do her thing' is what is meant refuge in dhamma (trust nature's way). The dedication to liberation is like trust in Buddha-nature, so it took me a while to join the dots, but it makes perfect sense to me.

[sky]

In Buddhism capitalised 'Dharma' refers to the teachings of The Buddha, lower case dharma refers to the Law of nature.

" They go to many a refuge, to mountains, forests, parks, trees, and shrines: people threatened with danger. That's not the secure refuge, that's not the highest refuge, that's not the refuge, having gone to which, you gain release from all suffering and stress. But when, having gone for refuge to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, you see with right discernment the four Noble Truths — stress, the cause of stress, the transcending of stress, and the Noble Eightfold Path, the way to the stilling of stress: That's the secure refuge, that, the highest refuge, that is the refuge, having gone to which, you gain release from all suffering and stress."

Dhammapada, 188-192.

Taking refuge in the Dharma is trusting the teachings of The Buddha....

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 587 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by sky

Dhammapada, 188-192.

Taking refuge in the Dharma is trusting the teachings of The Buddha....

Excellent point. Trusting the teachings of the Buddha is a catalyst to practice. At some point, however, one no longer needs the pointers as the metaphorical raft is left behind.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Excellent point.

The way I see it is you get Buddhist or other religious text and you end up with a sectarian view, so one thinks Jesus is the saviour, the next one doesn't - one does the breath meditation, one prays to god and so on. Then we say Buddhist teachings are the special ones so take refuge in those, and the Christian is like, no, ours are the right ones so take refuge in that. All the religions do this and so called 'dhamma' is sectarian. Nothing universal. Dhamma is universal by deinition, so I maintain 'refuge in dhamma' is something more like trust the universe, and the text of any sect/religion isn't particularly relevant.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

QUOTE 587 EXCERPT:



Excellent point. Trusting the teachings of the Buddha is a catalyst to practice. At some point, however, one no longer needs the pointers as the metaphorical raft is left behind.

It certainly is a catalyst, why practise something you have no trust in , I personally wouldn't waste my time and effort .
I'm going to look on e-bay tomorrow for a new Raft, mine is on the verge of sinking and I still need one