Meditation, some answers

I want to make just a one more point on this issue of free will before moving on.

How we consider that we are making a particular choice? Quite naturally because it looks to us that we like that particular choice or that has more merits than other available ones.

Can there be any other way to concluding that we are making this choice because of free will? i do not think so.

What about if someone is able to influence our mind and thinking process subtly? Can we still consider those indirectly influenced decisions as free will?

Let me take one common analogy to make it clearer. We all know that we have trillions of dollar advertisement industry in the world. Does any advertisement ever force us to buy anything? Not at all but if that is true why companies spend 2-5% of their sales on advertisement? Are their CEO fools?
I do not think so. The reason of their spending on ads is that know they can affect our subconscious mind in favor of their products which letting us realize.

During my experiences in meditation, i realized that a lot of thought process continues perpetually in our subconscious mind. As it is soul's mind so those higher spiritual entities who are here to watch us, can directly influence our subconscious. As all that happens at subconscious level, our conscious mind does not get any hint of all that process. But, as the result of it, it becomes influenced by those input thoughts and consider those as its own. And, we think that we are exercising free will but in real sense it is not but merely a guided one, though indirectly and without our knowing.

with love,
sanjay

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

possibly, this idea of free will or no free will cannot be accepted, unless we are able to quieten mind sufficiently so as to to discern and distinguish between impulses arising from mind-body vs those from universal consciousness.

That is precisely my point. How would you determine that you are exercising free will or not. Through you mind but what if it is already influenced in one way or other? Then, how can you judge neutrally through it?

With love,
sanjay

One more point.

I find is easier to talk through analogies instead of using highly intellectual and complex language So i am using one more to make my point.

Say we have to judge any physical measurement like thickness of a rod very precisely. Now how we would be able to do it? First by ordinary caliper, Then we can use Vernier calipers if want to know the measurement up to 1/10 of the mm and if want to know up to the 1/100 of the mm, we have to use micrometer.

The point here is that accuracy of the measurement depends on the efficiency and trueness of the measuring instrument. So, the first thing we have to do in order to get the precise measurement is the perfect calibration of the measuring instrument. If we are not sure about the calibration of the instrument, we can never be sure about the measurement either.

In the same way, we have to be sure about the working and subtleties of our mind before judging whether it is able to exercise free will or not. In the same way, before we conclude that we are exercising free will, we have to judge how this I is making that decision.

with love,
sanjay

[Unseeking Seeker]

Originally Posted by zinnat

That is precisely my point. How would you determine that you are exercising free will or not. Through you mind but what if it is already influenced in one way or other? Then, how can you judge neutrally through it?

With love,
sanjay

judgment requires a judger, discernment relies upon resonation of the heart. Reworded, when head melds with heart, when our centre shifts to love, we cease indulgence (not participation!) in world of transience.

thus, as we were talking about free will, once boundaries between this here mind-body and universal love blur, when they draw nearer, there is no independent free will, because there is no separate doer.

free will presupposes separation from source.

Sorry Zinnat for changing the course of your thread for a little while. But I find it important to understand the origin of Will, would it be only the will to move one finger, to see how much little science knows from where this decision comes from.

On Free will by neuroscience the Bereitschaftspotential.

''This momentous discovery was the beginning of a lot of trouble in neuroscience. Twenty years later, the American physiologist Benjamin Libet used the Bereitschaftspotential to make the case not only that the brain shows signs of a decision before a person acts, but that, incredibly, the brain’s wheels start turning before the person even consciously intends to do something. Suddenly, people’s choices—even a basic finger tap—appeared to be determined by something outside of their own perceived volition.''

The same goes the other way when we become conscious that we perceive something, the activity in the brain becomes active before we are conscious of it from our social persona.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

I actually don't want free will...I'm better off when God takes the wheel! (Please...)

Amen ! Amen ! Amen !
It took me a long time to grasp the value of SURRENDER, and I am not going to surrender that either ... just to get "free will".

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by pixiedust

Here is an excellent piece by Sri Auribindo on the topic of free will. I agree and thank him for his excellent writing skills.

https://sriaurobindostudies.wordpres...d-determinism/

That is an insightful piece by Sri Aurobindo, particularly:

" We have the sense of freedom in our minds based on this illusion of free choice. It is an illusion because we fail to take into account the larger framework and reality that actually sets up and determines our choices for us..."

When one surrenders, one connects with the transcendent and can then "take into account the larger framework and reality that actually sets up and determines (influences) our choices for us".

Also:

“The only free will in the world is the one divine Will of which Nature is the executrix; for she is the master and creator of all other wills.”

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Legrand

Just love Sri Aurobindo work, please do let me know when you post on him.

Why not start a separate thread on Sri Aurobindo? I would love to explore more of Aurobindo. Since his points are so universal, however, I am not sure which forum would be most appropriate.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 152 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by zinnat

During my experiences in meditation, i realized that a lot of thought process continues perpetually in our subconscious mind.

Absolutely ... and much of the subconscious mind can be brought into consciousness through various meditation practices.

In dream formation, for example, the subconscious manifests quite naturally for one who can observe that process from start to finish.

This is great stuff, Zinnat ! Keep it up !

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 156 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Legrand

... incredibly, the brain’s wheels start turning before the person even consciously intends to do something. Suddenly, people’s choices—even a basic finger tap—appeared to be determined by something outside of their own perceived volition.''

That is a very very relevant point, Legrand.

Dr. Bruce Greyson, Professor Emeritus of Psychiatry and Neurological Sciences at the University of Virginia, came to the same conclusion regarding "Consciousness Independent of the Brain". This video presentation by Dr. Greyson is very consistent with your point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aWM95RuMqU&t=3254s